Hello, and welcome to the Online Counseling Podcast. I’m so glad that you have chosen to spend some time with us today. As our regular listeners know, our entire goal here is to explore the world of online therapy: How it’s changing, what challenges exist, how do we do online counseling ethically and legally, and how do we grow our practices? Lately, we’ve been exploring some of the available HIPAA-compliant platforms that are available out there, and we’re gonna continue to bring some new ones to you. In fact, I have a podcast lined up for next week, I believe, with a great new option. But sometimes I think it’s great to talk with online therapists who are actually doing this type of work so we can learn from them. And today, we get to know a very inspiring therapist, Megan Zesati. Now, as most of you know, this podcast is connected to the Online Counseling Directory, where therapists list their practices, and we work to bring them clients. And I love it when we get new members because, with each new member, I go to their website and poke around and learn about them and check their credentials. And when I can, I give them a call just to welcome them.
CC: I have been so inspired by getting to know all these fascinating and talented and incredibly different therapists and their different approaches. And I do like to think of the directory as a little family of mental health professionals. So I got to know Megan when she signed up for the directory, and was fascinated by her story. She and her husband, who is also a therapist, were based in Austin, Texas, and had a dream of taking a sabbatical year off and travel the world. They both wanted to continue to work so they began to transition their existing face-to-face clients to online. And now they’ve been living in Costa Rica for the past several months, continuing to work with their clients remotely. And Megan has loved this work so much that she’s beginning to reach out to the… What she calls, the digital nomad population; people who work from their laptops from any place in the world. And her idea is to grow her practice with this group of people. She has such a great story, and I found her really inspiring, and I hope you do too.
CC: And Megan says that she has already received a referral from the Online Counselling Directory, so if you haven’t checked us out yet, please head on over to onlinecounselling.com and see how we can grow your practices too. Okay, here’s Megan.
CC: Hello and welcome. I’m really thrilled to have Megan Zesati as a guest. Megan, welcome to the show.
Megan Zesati: Thank you. Thanks for having me, Clay.
CC: So tell me, where are you sitting right now?
MZ: I am sitting in my, I guess you would call it, my office, in Atenas, Costa Rica, is where I am right now, which is just west of San Jose.
CC: Oh, wow, okay. Years ago, when I was 16, I visit… I flew into San Jose and visited Puerto Limon, and that’s my only connection with Costa Rica, so I’m sure things have changed a lot since then.
MZ: We have not yet made it to that coast. That’s on the list.
CC: It’s on the list?
CC: Well, I want our listeners to get to know you. So tell me a little bit about… First of all, talk about your journey to becoming a therapist, and then how did this become an online thing for you?
MZ: Yeah, okay. So my journey to becoming a therapist. Well, I’m a social worker. Let’s see, I got my Masters in 2001, at The University of Texas in Austin. And I guess before that, I got my undergraduate degree in philosophy. [chuckle] After that, I didn’t have much of an idea what I wanted to do, but I was suddenly cut off and had to support myself. So I found myself working three different part-time jobs, making very little money, waiting tables. And one of them was a social work job, and that was the one that I just really felt fulfilled by, so I decided to go back for my Master’s. And, yeah, sorry. My voice is shaking. That’s what happens when I’m nervous. So apparently.
CC: It’s just you and me here. We’re just getting to know one another. So social work, and you just kind of fell in love with the work?
MZ: Yes, I did. And I think now it’s… The reasons why I’m a therapist now are different than why I went into it at first. I think I probably went into it ’cause, I wouldn’t have thought this at the time, but I probably needed some therapy myself, and it felt like a safer way to go and try to save every one else first. [chuckle]
CC: That sounds like a familiar story.
MZ: It’s little bit of a wounded healer thing.
MZ: I did my own work. I’d done some therapy even before social work school, but throughout, my practice has continued to evolve throughout these years. My reasons for practicing today are different than they were then. So I started out working with kids, and I no longer do that, and started out doing child welfare, social work, and I’ve been doing private practice for the past 10 years.
CC: And what were some of the challenges, I guess, of starting a private practice? I think it takes sometimes an entrepreneurial spirit, there’s certainly a learning curve in running your own business. What was that journey for you like?
MZ: So I really like the beginning new things, I like working on my own, I like creating. I actually did my internship, for social work, in Oaxaca, Mexico, and there was no internship at that time, but I knew I wanted to go. So I would go and travel there, and I basically set it up and found my supervision. And that’s kind of part of what motivates me is I like to dream things up and try to make them happen.
CC: Love it.
MZ: And so starting practice, I started… I was working at the time at People’s Community Clinic in Austin, and I was… I started my practice on the side, so like a moonlighting. And so it stayed kind of a smaller part-time practice for several years, then I had my children. It stayed small until they were… My kids were a little older, and then I’ve been full-time in practice since around 2008, kinda full time. Yeah.
CC: Yeah, okay. And did you love it? Did you find it challenging?
MZ: I have both loved it and found it challenging. I think, like so many therapists, that I had no training in the business aspect of stuff and the marketing, had to really still continue to work with that. And it’s a steep learning curve, and there wasn’t much guidance certainly, not at the school social work around that.
MZ: So that’s been the areas of challenge for me.
CC: Any tips or tricks or things that you learned along the way of, “This is what works or maybe this is not… This is what doesn’t work,” in building a private practice?
MZ: I think it’s a lot of… It’s been a lot of just trial and error, and so I think it’s a lot of don’t be afraid to make mistakes and everything’s in process, and it’s… Especially with online, try something out, see how it works, shift it if you need to. And in the end, relationship, especially building a brick and mortar practice there in Austin was about joining consultation groups, and making friends, and going to trainings, and connecting with people, and being just generally useful to my colleagues and to my clients, and that’s not hard to do, ’cause that feels natural. So I think I’ve been perhaps fortunate in starting my practice. It hasn’t been super difficult, and I think I came into the Austin market when it wasn’t super saturated with therapists. And I think it’s changing. So it would probably be harder to build now.
CC: Yeah, but I love that idea and I’ve not heard it put that way, of, “I need to be useful. Useful to my community, to my colleagues,” and whether that’s volunteering or doing seminars or reaching out, I don’t know what that means to the listeners, but to me, that seems like it’s giving back to our field, and certainly to our community.
MZ: Yes, absolutely. And service is part of that. When I moved out of social work and then to private practice, it was something I really missed, being part of a community, being of service. And so a little later, when my kids got old enough to have the space to do this, I started volunteering and I joined the board of directors at a non-profit, and I did things that nurtured that side of me that needed to be part of a community and giving back.
CC: Absolutely. I talk about a lot about BNI, which is a Business Networking International, these small business owners who get together for breakfast once a week, and that meant a lot to me to be of service to these other members Knowing that they’re growing their business as well, I want to help them. I want to you give them referrals, and keep my eye open, or who needed an attorney, and who needed a mover, and who needed a plumber? And so it kind of sounds like the same spirit of what you’re talking about.
CC: So then let’s kinda jump into the idea of how did you get into telemental health, doing online counseling, what was that like?
MZ: Yeah. Well, I was definitely resistant to it. And I had been doing it as part of my practice in Austin for years, using VSee when my clients would travel. So I was familiar with kind of how to do it, but I just felt like it was better to be in the room with someone. And so I was resistant… And I’m kind of a technophobe, so I was intimidated by the legal and ethical issues, and technological issues and…
CC: So how did you get past that? I hear that all the time. How did you get past some of that fear?
MZ: Well, that goes into a little bit of the story of how we wound up here. But basically, I wound up getting over it because that’s what I had to do in order to live the life that we’re living right now. And on the other side of it now, I can say I’m actually… I kinda thought this would be something that I would do just to kind of keep my practice going along on pilot light until I came back. The backstory is I’m in Costa Rica now, but we’re taking a family sabbatical year. So…
CC: Yeah. Tell us about this. This is fascinating. Tell me about this. What’s going on?
MZ: Yeah, so we’re away for a year and we’re coming back. And so, originally, just kind of doing the online therapy, it was like “Well, you know, for the clients who want to continue, and if it makes sense to do this, then we’ll do it,” but I kind of felt some dread about it, honestly, and didn’t want to do it all that much and felt like it would be actually really hard with my existing clients to feel them there and yet not there, and vice versa. And so now, on the other side of it, I’m about five months in and I am surprised and delighted that I’m actually really excited about just the continuity it’s provided with my clients that I’ve continued with, but also the possibilities for connecting with people outside and to find… Just how I found my own way into it, the potential that I see, to reach vulnerable populations, to reach people that otherwise would have no support, and for myself as well, just to have some flexibility. I can go more into that, that’s a little part of the backstory.
MZ: At this point, I’m 42 now, I’ve been in practice for over 15 years in therapy, and call it a mid-life crisis, whatever it is. Some time over the past year, my practice is stable, I feel good, and I started to just kinda feel like, “Huh, I could keep doing this, but is this really… Do I want to for the rest of my life? Am I going to grow in my career in any way?” So there was a little bit of that. Additionally, I was having some physical pain and some sciatica and stuff that was exacerbated by sitting in the chair a lot. So I started to feel just physically distracted by pain, by wanting to be able to get up and stretch but not feeling like I’d be able to do that. I understand you do the walk-and-talk therapy.
CC: Yeah, that does help my back. [chuckle]
MZ: Yeah, exactly, and I think that’s… But I started to feel kind of how hard this job can be… Like how narrow and limiting and restrictive it can be when life is happening to us, whether it’s pain or something else that’s taking our attention away. And then the pressure’s really on in private practice. And if you have a family or any other… So that was happening, there was some pain, I was thinking, “Gosh, if this doesn’t go away, if this lasts for a long time, what will that mean for my work, and for my clients?” and I’m sure it was affecting how I was in session, that I was having to split my attention in this way. There was that. There were multiple factors that moved into us packing up our family, and I’m here with my husband, who’s also a therapist, and I’ve got nine-year-old twins, so we just kind of up and left for the year. And for that… My husband and I have always had the value of we want our children to know other cultures. My husband’s, he’s from Mexico City. He’s from another culture, we have a bicultural, bilingual family, so we’ve always wanted this to be more integrated into our life, and yet we’re really tethered to Austin.
MZ: He’s also a therapist for practice. And so we really started to talk seriously last year about like, “Okay. Well, if we were to do this, how?” And it started us kind of thinking maybe in the next year and a half, we can start planning it. But as we started considering the age of the kids and what was coming ahead, and how quickly time passes, it really intensified things, and we thought, “Let’s just do it now. This is… It’s actually a great time to go.” And from there, we… My husband and I took a weekend retreat, some time around New Years. And my favorite time… I love New Years Day, just full of possibility, and we came back from that saying, “Alright, we’re gonna do it.” And some time after that, he had to make a decision to renew his lease for his office or not, and that was kind of when it all clicked, and I was like, “Okay, here we go.” And then it was kind of five, six months of crazy whirlwind, preparing, packing up our lives, and I’ll talk specifically about what it was like to transition my practice and how I did that.
CC: That’s incredible. How did you decide on Costa Rica? If you had the whole world in front of you, why Costa Rica?
MZ: We wanted somewhere where the kids would speak Spanish. We looked at Nicaragua, we looked at Colombia. We wanted somewhere where the cost of living was lower because of course, we’re taking a financial hit here, and we’ve done Mexico. That’s part of our… We actually moved to Mexico for a while right after we got married. I’d been going back and forth to Mexico for years, even before I knew my husband. And he and I, we wanted more of an adventure for us, something new for us. With kids, we wanted… They’re going to school here, so that guided a lot of the… Where would be a decent school for them, what’s a safe place to be, what’s the medical system, a lot of these kind of adult-ing things. So it ultimately guided when we were looking at different places. In the end, we came back to Costa Rica, and it’s just beautiful…
CC: Oh, I’m sure.
MZ: With the weather outside.
CC: Incredible. Well, so many people think about one day, and, “Wouldn’t it be cool if we could…,” but you all actually said “We’re gonna do it,” and you’re doing it now.
MZ: “We’re gonna do it.” Yeah.
CC: Now, is your husband… I’m sorry, go ahead.
MZ: No, you go ahead.
CC: Well, is your husband continuing to see clients through online counseling?
MZ: He is. He’s doing it too. Yeah, yeah, so it’s working, and for…
CC: Sorry, I keep interrupting you. I want you to talk. Go ahead.
MZ: No, if anyone out there is listening, and I know people wonder about this and I know families, too, think it’s hard to imagine leaving especially when you have kids, but there were so many logistics to deal with leaving, but, gosh, now that we’re here, it’s just… I don’t regret it, ever, not for an instant. And it’s so much more attainable than it seems when you’re first starting to kind of dream about it. And the practice part, really, it hasn’t been that difficult. In my therapeutic relationships, often, I was the resistant one, and my clients would kind of say, “Okay. Well, once you to work past whatever is in the way for you. We’ll be here.”
CC: I hear that a lot too. This is something that is client-driven. They are wanting the convenience, the flexibility of online work, and it’s us that need to get comfortable with it.
CC: What then was the transition for you as your practice? It sounds like it went pretty smoothly.
MZ: It did. I did plan it out pretty well. So basically what happened, and this is true throughout this entire process continuing now, is that there are many things I don’t know, and I think the most important thing given that is that I practice with integrity, that I do the best that I can, and that I’m transparent with everyone in my path about what’s going on, what I know, what I don’t know. And so it started, back in January, once we made our decision, that process with my clients of letting them know. So there’s about five months lead time. That this was something that we were going to do. There are many things I didn’t know at that time, including where we were going to be, but the intention was to continue online with whoever wanted to and whoever it made sense for.
MZ: And that was a… That was really rough. And so making those… Having those conversations, I’m really grateful that I had months of lead time, because it just gave us time to process all of the different feelings that came. I found that, at first, people have this kind of like, “Oh, that’s so exciting for you,” but of course, there’s other feelings that went along with that. Maybe some abandonment, maybe even some jealousy, maybe some wanting to be happy for me, but minimize what they were feeling or… There was just a lot to work through. And I tend to have a practice with longer-term clients in it, so the people that I’ve seen for anywhere between five and 10 years. So we kind of got to work on a client-by-client basis, talking about what this means for us. Do we continue online? If anyone had any interest at all in continuing online, we piloted at least one session just to see how it felt, and did that with plenty of time to process afterwards about what was that like, in person, not…
CC: Yeah, smart. So they get used to it, and then you’re able to, face-to-face, talk with them on how they feel.
MZ: Yes. Yes. I also kind of worked… Everyone has a little bit of a plan with… Anyone I continued with online, and this was for me, I just wanted them to have an on-the-ground contact, is kind of how I think of it. And who that person is varies. And I didn’t take anyone with me that works… There’s any kind of crisis work or high-risk work involved, I just wasn’t comfortable with that. But the folks that did come, several of them have had a one-time meeting with a therapist colleague of mine, and signed a consent for if I ever became concerned or if we needed to get them in the room with someone, this would be their contact that they had there that I would then collaborate with. So I have that set up with a few folks. And again, it’s turned out to be overkill, but it was, for me, what I needed to do to feel at ease with this. What else can I tell you?
CC: That sounds like that it went pretty smoothly, and that you started asking the questions of, “What do I need to do to feel comfortable about this?” and then doing that, but…
MZ: Yes. And I had to get consultation on… ’cause again, others were long-term relationships and some of it, for… I had to get consultation on does it make sense to continue or not? And some relationships, some therapeutic relationships ended because I felt like it would have done or they did a disservice to what they needed to continue online. So I don’t think it’s for everyone, and some people are kind of holding on until I get back. I actually go back to Austin every couple of months, and I see… I just came back from a whirlwind trip and saw everybody there, it was great to be back, and just to touch base in person. So for me, an ideal practice would be some sort of a hybrid like that, but I’ve been really surprised at the ability to connect with people online, and the consistency, and then to be able to come in for a session and feel like I can just drop right back in step with them, and we’ve just spoken last week.
CC: A couple of questions come to mind.
CC: So is your caseload currently all people from Austin, or are you growing your practice? In the past, you’ve talked about digital nomads, and do you have any clients that you’ve never seen face-to-face and has always been 100% online therapy?
MZ: Yeah, so I started just taking some clients from Austin, but as I’ve come here, and I’ve become… I’ve kind of worked through my issues, so to speak, about online and I’m living this digital nomad type life where we’re based in Costa Rica but we’ve also been to Nicaragua and we’re gonna be going to Thailand and Mexico, and so we’re hopping around a bit ourselves. And so I’ve become connected with this community of people who do this, who work from their laptops and work online and travel from wherever they are. And I’ve started to get curious about what their mental health needs are, do they have them, how do they get support? And so I’m just now starting to play around with that as an idea for a continuing practice. And that really is kind of a whole different thing as I see it, but it’s an exciting idea, especially to consider internationally to reach people that truly can be very isolated and, yeah, just have no access. And I don’t mean crisis stuff, but just no access to ongoing… The idea, I love the idea of creating a therapeutic home online for people who are traveling, and that therapy could be a place that people come home to wherever they are.
MZ: So I’m playing around. One of the great things about being here is that I have time to think.
MZ: Which maybe sounds like just an expression, but it feels kind of revolutionary. It’s like when I left, I just… Life was so saturated that I didn’t have time to think. And so I feel that this has been really important for me and my practice because a therapist, we are the tool, and we talk about self-care and all of these things, but it’s really hard to… I found that I was fitting it in like another thing on my to do list like, “Oh, do yoga!” or, “Sit and try to meditate for a period of time,” or, “Go to a dinner with my friend, and try to connect that way,” but it’s really hard just to have spaciousness to think about ourselves and our clients, and what we need and want, to have any kind of a creative life or connection with nature. I mean, this has just been a huge gift of having this experience that, I think, mitigates the distance of our therapy, is that I feel just so much more grounded and receptive and open and excited and alive.
CC: Yeah, I can hear it.
MZ: Yeah. So I’ve had to turn upside down a little bit, all of my ideas about what makes good practice and look at them again. And I think I was very rigid in my I thinking around good practice means in the room where I can see the whole body and read all the body language, and feel someone’s presence in the room. And I was neglecting the impact that my own well-being has on that equation, and my own spaciousness, and my own ability to think. Yeah. So I’ve been with that a lot. And I feel like that’s a little… I don’t know. It’s a hard job, in that way, right? I’ve been, for a long, long, long time since before being a therapist, kind of an anchor person. I’m an anchor for my family, and I’m an anchor in my friendships, and I’m grounded, and I’m always there, and I’ve lived in Austin for a long, long time. And so it was very unsettling for me to shake up that identity a little bit and be like, “Well, what if I leave? What does that mean? Can I still be a therapist? And does that make me flighty? And what would I need to set in place in order to still be an anchor and a home for people, clinically, but also taking care of myself and also giving myself some experience of freedom and these things I talk about with my clients?
CC: Absolutely. And I talk with people who are exploring adding online counseling to their practice. And certainly, hearing from you, this is inspirational. I’m sure that there are people saying, “This is a great idea. Let me take a year off and travel the world, and I can still work, have an income.” I know, for my wife and I, we went to Rome for six weeks, and I was able to experience this amazing culture and still work. There are people that just want to maybe add a little bit of… They’ve got some open slots. And maybe this is an idea of, “I want a little flexibility,” and to begin… So people come to this in all sorts of different ways.
CC: But I know there’s gotta be a lot of questions going on about logistics. So let’s talk about the logistics for you. I would think that it would be concern about internet connection. How did you go about making sure that you’re gonna have a strong broadband connection in Costa Rica?
MZ: Yeah, it really did inform where we go. So there were some places, like when we were considering Nicaragua, the place where we were looking, the connection just wasn’t solid enough. We’ve found that here, we need at least three megabytes per second to have a solid connection, and kinda have a backup plan, and sometimes my backup plan fails too. But for the most part, here in Costa Rica, and where we are in particular, we’ve got a pretty steady connection. And there have been mishaps, but I think, for your listeners who are considering doing this, you can’t just go anywhere, at least not right now. I think there’s technologies developing for that. I’m really interested in pursuing, I think people are using cellphone networks to try to use wireless routers that are connected. You’ll see the failings in all my technologies as I talk through this. But what I understand is those are all solutions that maybe work in some places and not others. So, that’s probably the primary consideration when people consider where to go, as well as where is your therapeutic space gonna be? That’s one of the things that I tell people who are considering online, you have to… The burden is on both you and the client to really create your own therapeutic space.
MZ: And so that’s part of an initial consult that I’ll do with someone, just seeing what it feels like to do this, we’re not gonna get into any clinical stuff until we’ve formed an agreement to start a therapeutic relationship, but you can see what it feels like to be here, we can play with lighting, we can talk about creating a confidential space and where you are, and that’s something we really pay attention to wherever we are as well.
CC: And what platform do you use for online counseling?
MZ: I really wanna love Doxy.me. It’s not working out for me these days so I’ve gone back to VSee, which is what I’ve been using before and I have no reason at all to dislike other than I’m gonna pay them per the BAA agreement, which I haven’t yet done. Don’t call the HIPAA please.
CC: I won’t.
MZ: But that is forthcoming. I’ve been playing with Doxy.me, but it’s been three times in a row now where I’ve had to say, “Let’s log off of this and log on to VSee and do it this way.
CC: We’ve got some new platforms that we’re gonna be talking about on the podcast. So stay tuned for that. Maybe there’s something else that’s gonna work better. And maybe part of where you are in the Central America, I know some of these really depend on where the servers are located on the globe. But, good, I’m glad VSee is working for you.
MZ: It’s working for me. Yeah, it works well. Even there’d be times when I, for those of you who are familiar it will say “Network connections are affecting your…,” and I start to panic a little bit, but actually it stays, we can see each other and hear each other. So it’s been pretty good. Our biggest issue is that it’s a lovely temperature here, so there’s no AC, so it’s all open air. And so when I have a session or my husband has a session, we literally run everyone out of our house because you can hear from other parts of the house because it’s all kind of open air.
CC: Fascinating, the things you don’t think about.
MZ: Yeah, yeah. I know we were all excited about not having AC and all of that, we were not thinking at all about the confidentiality issues that would pose.
CC: Well, you figured it out.
MZ: That’s right. We figured it out.
CC: What about payment? How do you accept payment?
MZ: I was using Square before. And for some people, that continues to work, and I just email invoices. And I’ve also started to accept PayPal. There is one that I haven’t yet used called… Oh goodness, TransferWise. Does that sound familiar?
CC: I haven’t heard of that one.
MZ: But yeah, PayPal and Square. I like Square.
CC: Yeah, yeah. I use Square.
MZ: Yeah, so that’s been fine. I just email invoices, and some clients even choose to have their card on file, and then I just kind of do a monthly bill and then some I just invoice per session, so…
CC: Okay, alright. Well, this is… I am inspired, and I’m sure some of our listeners are as well. Does anything else come to mind of some things that people may need to think of, or some things that you’ve learned along this incredible journey?
MZ: What have I… I just think… I’ve been listening to your podcast since we were dreaming this up in Austin, and when you proposed that we do a podcast, I thought, “Oh my gosh, I know nothing about any of this. What if I say something that gets me into trouble?” or… And I think there’s… My reaction is symbolic of there’s a lot of fear, I think, around this because there’s so much that is unknown because our digital landscape is constantly shifting and there’s, at least for me, I can never keep up. And then when you consider board licensing agreement and just the different layers of it, and I just keep anchoring around, and this is, I guess, what I would wanna get across, is these things are very important. Being compliant, our technology, making sure everything works, and being skilled and experienced in doing our education and learning these things. But I hope that in time, as online therapy continues to grow, as it will; whether therapists like it or not, I think it’s happening and will continue to grow, I hope the conversation expands more to just talking about practice. I would love to, for example, join a consultation group of therapists, where we talk just about…
MZ: Not so much about all the technicality but around our cases and practicing… How is it different? Practicing with integrity. And so that’s where my interests are right now, but the technical aspects and the privacy, it’s all very doable. And I actually think the risks are just not that great, in the grand scheme of things. I think it’s a much greater risk to have somebody’s confidence in your hands and somebody’s… Their privacy and their their inner world, and that’s what’s most important, that we just treat with a lot of care and integrity. And all this stuff around HIPAA, that’s just the bottom line. This is the lowest common denominator stuff. But I kind of feel like if I keep protecting my client and what happens in the room, whether online or sacred, that’s still what’s most important. And so, I don’t know, I feel like with online therapy, sometimes that gets lost a little bit, and we all get anxious ’cause it’s kind of unknown.
CC: Well, Megan, your story is inspirational. As soon as I heard it, I thought, this is somebody that I think the listeners are going to enjoy. Thank you so much for sharing your journey. Please keep in touch with us. Let me know how the rest of this year goes. It would be fun to check in with you again once you get back and see what other lessons have come your way.
MZ: Happy to, and thanks for having me. And, really, thank you for putting this out there. This has been just an amazing resource for me, and I think so many other people to inspire us and to give us direction and to hear. I love podcasts, the intimacy of hearing somebody’s conversations, it’s just a really nice way to enter. So, thank you.
CC: Oh, good. And one other thing. You did say that you got a referral from the Online Counselling Directory, right?
MZ: I did.
CC: Oh, good.
MZ: I think it’s really a great platform. And, yeah, if anyone hasn’t checked it out yet, they should.
CC: Thank you!
MZ: I think it’s real clean and nice and user-friendly, and I have no doubt it will continue to grow and grow and…
CC: Good. Well, thank you. That’s a wonderful little plug there, I appreciate it.