Welcome to the Online Counseling Podcast. Exploring the practice of counseling through technology. Here’s your host Clay Cockrell.
Clay: Hello and welcome to the Online Counseling Podcast and my name is Clay Cockrell. And, today is podcast number five and I am thrilled that we’re gonna be able to talk with Jimi Sayo. So, many of you know, if you’ve been listening to the podcast for a little bit of time that I’ve been doing it, I’m a huge cheerleader for BNI and that stands for Business Networking International. And so, if you know a little bit about that great, if not, go to BNI.com. But, essentially it’s just an organization and they got chapters all over the world. But, it’s an organization where you meet once a week and have breakfast and learn from other small business owners, other practioners and you refer to one another; that’s as basic as you can get. And, it’s a great support network for people out here who are having a private practice. And so, last summer my wife and I went to London and we spent a month there and I could work online, seeing my clients virtually and be able to experience such an incredibly international city. And so, I started thinking, “Okay, Business Networking International; they have chapters all over the world, maybe I could visit a couple chapters in London and meet some people who are, you know, working in London.” So, I did. I visited three different chapters in London and it was incredible and to meet the locals, to meet other people who know the BNI world and how to refer. And of course, it’s hard to get up early in the morning and figure out your way along the tube and, “Where am I?” and “How do I get there?” But, once you – I got inside, yeah, “I know this, this is BNI.” So, at one of the BNI chapters I met Jimi Sayo who is a hypnotherapist. And, you’d think, “Why are you interviewing a hypnotherapist on your online counseling podcast?” Jimi Sayo is a hypnotherapist who works online via Skype and other platforms and that just kind of blew my mind. So, if – you know I think most people approach hypnotherapy with some degree of skepticism and we talk about this in the interview. And then, you add the idea of, “I’m gonna do hypnotherapy online,” it just kinda amps that up a bit. But, I think the research is showing that hypnotherapy is an incredibly powerful tool to work with many people and you think, “Why not be able to do it online?” And certainly, let’s talk to somebody who’s doing it and figure out what’s going well for them and what are the challenges. So, I am so glad to welcome her to the show, she’s incredibly talented. I can listen to that British voice forever and I’m just really pleased that she’s spending a little bit of time with us. And so, if you want to know more about her, she’s at hypnotherapyresults.co.uk and with no further introduction let’s jump right in. Hello, this is Clay Cockrell with the Online Counseling Podcast and today I am very excited to welcome a guest that I’ve met; last summer, my wife and I spent a month or so in London, which is one of the benefits of being able to work online, is you can travel for extensive amount of time and still be able to work. So, I was in London and took advantage of seeing a few BNI chapters. And I know you hear me talk a lot about BNI on this and the importance of business networking, but I was able to meet a hypnotherapist that is working online as well as face-to-face in London. And, she has agreed to be interviewed today and tell us a little bit about her practice. So, please help me welcome our guest today, Jimi Sayo from London. Jimi, welcome.
Jimi: Thank you very much Clay. I’m really, probably twice as excited as you are to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
Clay: Absolutely, I’m glad that we’re able to connect. And so, tell me a little bit about how you go into hypnotherapy and a little bit about your practice in London.
Jimi: Okay. Well, I’d love to say that I got into hypnotherapy for, you know, noble reasons. But really, somebody just said to me one day, “I know something you would be good at.” And I said, “What?” And she said, “A hypnotist. You’ve got the voice for it.” And, I was initially quite offended actually because back then I had kept a distance from hypnosis because I kinda come from a bit of a semi-religious background where we’ve been warned about the dark forces. And hypnosis is right up there with them. So I was a bit put out, thinking, “Why would she think I’d be that kind of person?” And she picked up on my reservations, my indignation; asked me what that was about and I explained that, “Well, I don’t get involved in things that are supernatural.” And she said, “No, no, no, no.” You know, and recommended a book, said I should go and read it. And I ordered the book from Amazon. Quite skeptical because I could not believe hypnosis could be anything but a form of controlling people with super powers. And I read through this book and found out really hypnotherapy is about just understanding how we form our experience through language, observation, senses and that was it. And, I thought, “Right, this works for me.” And here I am 10 years later.
Clay: Wow. So, it’s interesting that you approached this as I imagine many of your clients may approach it, through skepticism.
Jimi: Skepticism, you know, almost hostility really. And wasn’t until after I qualified, I think for about, I say for about the best part of six years I didn’t tell my mother what I was doing. Yeah, because she’s, I mean she’s a church-goer. I wanted to tell her because I was so proud of when I done it, when I got the qualification and I actually had an outstanding student from my class when I qualified. And I liked to share it with her and this is, I said, “Oh, mummy. What do you know about hypnosis?” She went into a tirade about it. Everything she heard about it etcetera, etcetera. And, my attitude then was, step away from the angry mother. You know. And so, I just thought alright, don’t tell her, just lay low about it. And she actually found one of my leaflets my chance in her sister’s car. So, that’s how it became open knowledge in the family. But yet, that such was the level of distrust towards it that I was very, very secretive within my immediate close circle because I just thought it was best not to antagonize anybody or be distrusted.
Clay: And then, how – at what point did you get past that?
Jimi: It’s interesting. Well, I know for a fact my mother, she then came and asked for – “What’s all this about hypnosis?” So, I explained it to her and guess what, she actually came to me for a few weight-loss sessions. So, that was something; yeah, to get my mother really to trust and have it done. What I did find is that when I introduce myself to people, although it’s good to tell people how you can help them, I am very proud at the fact that I’m a hypnotherapist. And I will go in saying, “I am a hypnotherapist and I help people with” X, Y, Z. I let the hypnosis thing literally hit them between the eyes and the response I frequently get is, “Oh, I’ve never met a hypnotist before.” And I tell them, “Yes, you have.” But, because of the stigma a lot of people will refrain what they do and not tell you they’re hypnotist or hypnotherapist because they feel, and it is true, that the level of caution around the field of hypnosis/hypnotherapy is such that in certain circles where you can help a particular audience, you won’t get a chance to do so. Because as soon as they know that you use hypnosis, they back off. They’re so – the media has hyped it up as this thing you come across, you know, in a Sherlock Holmes movie or Dracula and things like that. Or, stage hypnosis shows where people allegedly quack like ducks, walk like dogs. So you know, people will often think, “No, I don’t want a part of that.” So, what I do is I deliberately make people know I’m a hypnotherapist. But I will give out samples of my work; like I have a recording, a relaxation recording. I have an introduction to hypnosis recording that explains what hypnosis is and what it isn’t. Little thing like that. I give talks; I’ll do talks at schools, local community events. I had a radio show for a while and although it wasn’t about hypnosis, it was about general health and well-being, you know, I didn’t hide the fact that I was a hypnotist. I want to normalize it because I think hypnotists are, you know, receding into the closet. So, I want to bring us out and loud.
Clay: Absolutely and I think with so many things, if you are confident in it and loud and proud about it, you disarm others and they are able to approach you in an open way I think.
Jimi: Yeah, and it’s a wonderful thing because, I know I’m bias because it’s what I do but, it can work so beautifully; using a person’s events, you know, their past events, present events, even their future events and create a really beautiful fabric for abundant living. And, it just makes me proud of it.
Clay: Good. Well, tell me a little bit about what kind of issues you address and what kind of clients you work with in your practice.
Jimi: Okay, well, the issues that can be addressed with it. I almost – when people say to me, “What can you do with it?” I always say it’s almost a questions of what can’t we help with hypnotherapy. There’s the typical things people are aware of: weight control, otherwise known as weight-loss, or stop smoking, help people to stop smoking, phobia cures, anxiety, depression, even chronic pain because you’re working on the mind-body connection. So I’ll often ask people, if they come to me for certain situations, especially if it’s something to do – where there’s that thin line, the gray line between whether it’s the body doing it or the mind making the body do it. I’ll make sure they’ve been to see the medical experts, the doctors, specialist; what have they done with these people to rule out any physiology. And if the situation has not responded to conventional therapies and medicines then I will say, “Right, now it’s time for us to do a little bit of investigation work and find out what your unconscious mind is up to.” And I’ll give you a really good example that maybe you may have (inaudible @ 12:49) with it; it’s an issue that will often affect couples and that’s erectile dysfunction. Now, otherwise known as impotence. And I use to, you know, use to ask people, you know, “Have you seen a doctor?” “Are you on medication?” Because, there’s some hypertension medication for example, can cause you know, erectile dysfunction. Yeah, and I thought that was all well and good. And then, with my radio show I interviewed a mother whose son had ended his life unfortunately. And, what she found out that she hadn’t been aware of, is that he had a long history of depression. She knew he had up and down moods but she hadn’t realized how chronic it was. He never consummated his relationship with his girlfriend, you know, just nothing was happening. And, she one day, after his inquest, she made the connection between him falling out of a tree as a child and hitting his head, and he was in a coma for five days; he had a serious head injury. He recovered from it for all intents and purposes, but as with a lot of people, it was observed that he was never quite the same after that accident. But, everyone just saw, yeah, how it affected his moods. What almost certainly had happened, and at the time I don’t think his post mortem looked into that because she only called the accident. This happened when he was nine and he ended his life in his 30s. So, she only put the two together, you know, afterwards. But, what would have probably happen was that there’ve been damage to the pituitary gland which regulates all the hormonally functions in the body, including libido, appetite, moods. Yeah, so he, had his doctor been aware there’s a very good chance that there’s some hormone replacement therapy that could have helped him to regain his libido. So, when I get people come to me for, saying like, erectile dysfunction, I’ll ask them, “Are you aware of any head injuries that you may have had as a child or an adult – night out get a bit drunk, trip over lose your balance?” If they can’t remember I ask them to ask their parents or carers that were around when they were young or siblings. Because, ruling this out is great. Why waste money on therapy if the cause of the problem is actually physiological? So, that’s a slight digression.
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Jimi: Exactly…
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Jimi: That’s right, exactly. And, in fact I’ve actually widened that now. If people come to me for depression, even weight control issues – obesity, lack of appetite control – I will ask them about possible head injuries, because if there’s been a damage to – and I need to get this right because I’m always confusing the brain parts – the hypothalamus, which is right next to the pituitary gland. If there is damage there, it’s such a fragile little organ, it completely, it derails the function it should be providing in sending the right hormones out to the body for the right functions. Yeah, so…
Clay: Then your work then opens up several areas to approach. From depression, weight-loss; once you’ve ruled out some medical issues and how often, let’s say, would you see a client and in the progression of improvement – is it a weekly process? What’s the duration of treatment for you?
Jimi: The duration of treatment is, I recommend where time permits, ideally weekly.
Clay: Okay.
Jimi: Especially, in the earlier stages of the therapies. Certain things like stopping smoking, a phobia cure, fear of flying; those can be done in one session, typically, one session. But, there are other things where they will need several sessions. And, I always recommend that they start with at least three. There would just be no point in not investing properly in sufficient sessions. I give the analogy of moving into a large house with a lovely garden – not a lovely garden – an overgrown garden. And, you trim the garden, you get a gardener in, you clear all the bushes and everything and then when you do it, you find that the bushes were hiding another problem, like a broken down fence; which now you cleared away the bushes you’ve got to build a fence because the bushes no longer provide the obscurity and protection against the outer elements. So, sometimes you move one issue in therapy and then you may find that it was cloaking another secondary issue which has taken a backseat while the other one took preeminence. So, that’s why I always tell people that you’re going to feel amazing after one session, but don’t be fooled because there’s still going to be a lot of other remedial work as a result of the long standing issue that’s been moved that needs to be dealt with. If I see, for example, a man has had erectile dysfunction for his wife or his partner; there’s probably been a lot of, a sense of rejection. I’m not good enough for this guy to get excited and you know, for us to be intimate. Just because he’s had therapy now to address that balance between the mind and the body and finally be okay to be intimate doesn’t mean suddenly he goes home to his partner with open arms because there could still be the residual resistance that…
Jimi: Yeah, exactly. Now, he or she has now have to get use to a partner who’s now ready for it. So, you know, in an ideal situation I will then see the partner as well; either the two of them together or individually to work on clearing. So, forgiveness and acceptance of what happened in the past has happened but you’ve now got an amazing future now that problem is out of the way. So, I would recommend weekly sessions sometimes it can go up to fortnights with weight control. If I do the(virtual? @ 19:49) gastric band when I’m with clients, I’ll often tell them, right, let’s give it a couple of weeks before our next session. Enough time for you to fall in love, have the flu or if it’s a lady of a certain age, to have your menstrual cycle; because these are the kinds of things that affect appetite and our approach to food. It’s like people come in and they’re sort of like, “Oh well, I think it’s working. I’m not sure.” But then they’ve had something else come along and challenge the situation. And, I knew a lady who just met a guy who, his way of expressing love was to encourage her to eat and she had her eating her portions under control but now, she has this amazing American guy, actually, who just went like, you know, “Eat, princess, eat!” So, she wasn’t sure if she was eating more than she would because the gastric band I’ve given her was no longer working or because she was so happy and in love. So, you know, that’s why I have that joke, you know; fall in love, have the flu, have a period, then come and see me.
Clay: Well, just where I was – I heard about the virtual gastric band. Perhaps you could just briefly talk a little bit about that.
Jimi: Yes, definitely. The virtual gastric band, it’s been around for some years. I’d say over a decade now and I basically, if I can use hypnotic suggestion to make a person’s hands stick to a table or make them forget things or experience things then by the same token why not take the power of hypnotic suggestion and give the body, the stomach, a sense of smallness, a smaller size? Because, at the end of the day our sense of containment when we’re eating is only achieved when the stomach’s filled or when there’s food in the stomach. So, if one makes that stomach smaller, which is what surgery does it makes the stomach smaller. If I can do that with suggestion and I can then it then means the person has a sense of getting full quicker and no longer needing to eat the food.
Clay: Yeah, I had several clients go through this process and it’s remarkable because it’s – they did not have the surgery, but the hypnotic suggestion is that I have had the surgery therefore what I would expect from – I’m not as hungry and I fill up very quickly – all that is there without the invasive surgery, and anesthesia and all this it’s fascinating and highly effective.
Jimi: That’s right, yes, it is. In addition though, the other thing I do with people is I help them get to the root cause of the destructive eating habits they’ve had prior because if you haven’t dealt with that, even with physical weight loss surgery, people can go back to their old eating habits and the stomach membrane will expand and once again be able to take large portions over large portions. I make clients aware of the actual size of their stomach and when I say to somebody, “Show me the size of your stomach. Demonstrate it with your hand.” Quite often, they will indicate the whole abdomen area because when we eat, we have a sense that we’re filling that whole area. Our plates are the size of our abdomen. Therein lies the problem already, you’ve got a plate way too big for the stomach you’re filling. We fill it out of love or consideration or not to be seen as cheating or defrauding and then we eat it really fast. So, I coach my clients to eat slower, to eat smarter. You know, be a bit more mindful of what you’re eating. There’s no dieting if you want a cake, eat the cake, just eat it slowly and notice that full point, that point where you are no longer hungry and then you make a decision; do you continue eating now you’re full? That’s the old behavior. Or, do you just put the food aside and say, “I won’t eat that anymore even if I need to throw it away.” And then, at that point, you also work with the belief system we often got from our parents; that it’s wrong to throw food away, you know, there’s starving children in Africa etcetera, etcetera. I also (wrote? @ 24:34) that actually it’s better to not treat your stomach as a waste bin. Let the waste bin be the waste bin, otherwise, you look like a waste bin.
Clay: I am fascinated by that approach and I can talk to you all day. But, I do want to understand more about how you are able to do what you do online via Skype. I’m assuming that you use Skype as your primary platform?
Jimi: Primarily, yes. Primarily, Skype. Yahoo’s an option.
Clay: What are the benefits and any challenges or difficulties that you’ve seen in doing hypnotherapy online?
Jimi: Oh, God. Let’s start with the challenges first. It may not be fairly American but I know that quite often after a session I’ll often have a hug with my clients at the doors as they’re leaving because they’re just so happy. You miss out on that on Skype. You don’t get the hug afterwards. But, on a more serious note, one of the great benefits is that people will no longer need to make a journey into London to come and see me. You can be anywhere; you can be on the Moon in fact. If you have Skype, internet access, then we can have a session. You know, and I’ve had clients in the Emirates, in Australia, a lot from the U.S., around the United Kingdom, even here in London; travel from one end of London to the other could be the best part of two hours.
Clay: Yes, it can.
Jimi: You know, so, for a lot of people it’s great for them to know that at the end of a hard working day, they don’t have to take time off from work, you know, they can get home be in their surroundings, make themselves comfortable and have a session.
Clay: And, have you found it to be just as effective?
Jimi: Yes. Do you know, when I first qualified I remember the general feeling then was that it’s not as effective and that it’s not as safe because sometimes a person might get very emotional and expressive during a session. Especially if the session is really sort of, you know, dug out very emotional issues, they can get a bit emotional. Now, in my therapy practice, you know, a few inches away from me, I’m there and I can make sure, right, that they’re still in the chair etcetera, etcetera. Keep an eye on them. You don’t touch them if they’re having that kind of emotional response. You’re just there for them. Now, if that were to happen via Skype, obviously, I’ll have to rely on my verbal skills to restore calm in a stronger way than I would in my practice. You know the sense that somebody else being there with you can be quite, you know, an extra boast. But, I have found that actually it’s just as good. If a person gets a little emotional, you can still comfort them online, be there for them. It’s just, it’s good. It’s quite effective.
Clay: Is it a bit of a learning curve then? Because, I found that it was – on paper it seems just the same as two people talking, “I’m looking into your eyes. You’re hearing my voice.” You may be in Australia and I’m in New York. But, it was just a little bit different and it was a bit of a learning curve and it sounds like for you as well; to be able to use your voice in a therapeutic way to calm a person. So, would you agree with that?
Jimi: Strangely enough, no. Yes, I could imagine because I think I was doing almost an equal number of Skypes sessions as I was doing face-to-face. So, really, yeah. So, I remember a time I went to training and we call it Continuous Professional Development here, CPD. And, the tutor leading here and this is a guy with about 30 years’ experience, physiotherapist and hypnotherapist. He was saying, “Oh, no, no, people don’t want to do Skype sessions.” And, I started thinking, “Yes they do. They come to me all the time.” So, there was a sense back them of it’s not really the thing to do. I found that my experience of it was just as good. I mean, I always say to people, “If you can come and see me in person, even better.” But, in terms of the results, the change, they get the change and that’s really what it’s about; getting the change to move on in life. Yeah. On the downside is internet connection. The internet quality, now that’s, you could be the best therapist in the world but sometimes, someone comes online and they haven’t checked their microphone beforehand or it worked the last time they used it. Sometimes, I’ve had my microphone on mute and not realize it’s on mute. And then, I’m thinking, “Why can’t they hear me?” So, from the technological side, point of view, it’s a bit like animals and children when you work with them or filming them, you know expect the unexpected. But, when the connection is good and sometimes I will use an internet cable rather than wireless for sessions to minimize the risk of the line dropping. It flows really well but, sometimes technology just won’t work and you just have to say, “Right, we will need to reschedule this.” Do you ever get that? Have you ever had that?
Clay: Absolutely, depending on sometimes where i am or where my client is. It’s just, it’s not in the stars, it’s just not gonna work today and in those situations, I think that people are very flexible and understand. Okay, this is nobody’s fault. This is just something where I have to work around. We’ll get on email and figure out a different time. Or, probably for me more than for you, we’ve been able to come up with work arounds if the microphone is not working on the computer, I’ve turned the microphone off on Skype and just kept the visual and then had them call my cell phone and I’m able to do audio on the phone and visual on Skype. And, the lips and the words are a little off but in general we’re able to see one another and continue. So, it’s figuring…
Jimi: Ingenious. I’ve learned something from you today. I like that.
Clay: It’s worked – a little work arounds when you can. But, sometimes you just have to reschedule.
Jimi: Yeah. I’ve never thought of that idea. It now seems so obvious, like I’m having a “duh” moment you know. But, yeah, I will next time that happens. Although sometimes what I’ve done, I’ve erred – we sacrificed video in favor of audio when there’ve been issues because you know for those who are technologically minded, listen to this. The packets of data going through, you have an easier time if it’s audio only rather than video.
Clay: Absolutely.
Jimi: Yeah.
Clay: So, this has just been fascinating. Tell me a little bit about your marketing and how you – I know BNI is certainly, probably a big part of that and connecting with other small business owners. And, for those of you who have just tuning and never heard of me talk about BNI like I do. Just look in the show notes, we’ll explain what Business Networking is. But, tell me a little bit, when you’ve got the world as your audience, you’ve got a global market. How do you approach in telling people about yourself?
Jimi: Well, definitely being a member of an organization like BNI does help because that’s the reason I’ve got this opportunity now to be talking on this podcast. Because, I got to meet you over breakfast at a cruelly, early hour of the morning you know and we got to chat over our toast about what we do. So, that gives me that opportunity. And so, I meet people, I talk about it. I’m going to be, very soon – ‘cause the online world is getting very competitive and it’s really about visibility. It’s almost less about your talents and your skills, more about being out there so that people can find you and people can notice what you can do. I’m going to be organizing my very first tele-summit where I can bring together a large collection of my tribe to listen to one of the most reoccurring topics that I encounter as a weight-loss specialist and that’s Polycystic ovary syndrome, otherwise known as PCOS. And you know, it’s the highest cause of infertility amongst women, PCOS? Yep, yep, and being able to regulate what they eat and regulate their health has a direct bearing on their insulin function and therefore, the whole reproductive system. So, I’m going to be organizing a tele-summit of experts to share some tips and best practices advice to women with PCOS. So, when you do something like that you know, especially when you specialize in a particular niche area – just like earlier on in the interview you asked me what are the areas I can help with and I could’ve sat here all day going through them; I got a whole sheet of conditions I give my clients to let them know that if you have any of these things, there’s a good chance I can help you but the problem them is that you’re spread a bit too thin. So, like you’ve got the online marital counseling niche group of people who have similar type problems. So, you can double up expertise in that area. So, for me being an expert in the area of weight loss and with issues of Polycystic ovary syndrome, the work gets around quicker because people – you know birds of a feather flock together – they have a particular issue, they talk to other people with that issue. And they can say, right, Clay helped me with this, he understands, he speaks our language etcetera, etcetera. So, in an online world, it’s so vast that really your best way is to bring yourself – reign yourself in and focus on a particular area. And, I find focusing on weight loss and fertility with women is a great way to work online. I even have online products too. Yes, go on, sorry.
Jimi: No, I think you can have online products as well. For those times that you may not around for people, you know, because we got the time scale difference. Yeah, one of my clients in Australia wanted to see me; my early morning will be their late evening. You know, so, syncing with that, with clocks across continents isn’t always easy. Well, one can also have online products that people can use in lieu of an actual session with you still…
Clay: And they’re easy to put together; a little e-book or a recording, a video of you talking about something and that can be downloadable for five dollars, 25 dollars, whatever. It’s a source of income; it’s also a source of advertising for you.
Jimi: That’s right and you can even offer it as a gift to people, just to give them a little taste of what you do, what you can do, let them get an idea actually, let me try this bite-size portion before committing to several hours of therapy with that person. So, yeah. But…
Clay: I could absolutely sit and listen to you talk for hours because I find your approach fascinating. We didn’t even get to talk about that you also use a new linguistic programming and…
Jimi: That’s right.
Clay: I think that I could spend all sorts of time talking with you but I want to be cognizant of your time and I know its afternoon over there in London now. So, I’m sure you’re quite busy. But, I do want people listening in to the podcast to be able to get in touch with you, to learn more, to go to your website and just to be sure, your website is hypnotherapyresults.co.uk, correct?
Jimi: That’s right. That’s right, yeah. And, it’s all one word: hypnotherapy results and its results, plural because often people get more than they bargain for out of one session. So, yeah, hypnotherapyresults.co.uk.
Clay: .co.uk. And…
Jimi: That’s right.
Clay: And, all of that information in the show notes so that everybody can learn more about you. But, truly, thank you so much…
Jimi: Can I just say one thing though? The spelling of my name Jimi is J-I-M-I, like Jimi Hendrix.
Clay: Yes.
Jimi: Yeah, yeah, because people often think it’s, you know, it’s a lady, it must be Jamie or something. Or, they spell it like the male Jimmy. But, J-I-one M and a I. And if you put into Google, Jimi hypnotherapy/hypnotist; I’m probably the only one that will come up at the moment I imagine.
Clay: Well, we’ll certainly have a link in the show notes for you and I wish you…
Jimi: Thank you.
Clay: …the best of luck. So, this has been Jimi Sayo. If you want to learn more about her check her out. Also, make sure that you go over to our site onlinecounselling.com that’s online counseling with two Ls, dot com to learn about other interviews that we are doing with people who are working online and bringing health to those around the world. Thank you very much.
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