John Wilson
Co-Founder / Online Events
Hello and welcome to the Online Counseling Podcast, my name is Clay Cockrell. This is the show where we explore the world of online therapy. Now, telemental health is a large world, and we mostly focus on connecting with our clients through video platforms, but it also encompasses online counseling done by text and email and even phone. So it’s a big world. And our goal is to explore it and talk about the challenges and benefits of creating an online therapy practice, hopefully with some inspiring stories and certainly with some guidance, both legal and ethical. So again, thank you for joining us. It’s a hot and sticky day here in New York, but it’s quite cool in Scotland where our guest joins us from Bathgate. I met John Wilson after I saw this thing called Online Events kept popping up on different social media platforms. And initially I just ignored it, but after a while, when you keep seeing the same thing over and over, I finally clicked on it and… Wow, not what I expected.
CC: They are an incredible resource for all of us in the mental health care world, not just online, everybody. And I’ll let John explain it further, but I think it’s a good example of learning not to dismiss something until you look into it a bit. I’m really glad that I contacted them. And John, as you will hear, is just a kind and lovely man who really has a passion for expanding our knowledge base as counselors and mental health care workers. It’s just really fascinating. But before I jump into the interview, most of you know this is where I do a little commercial for the online therapy directory. I hope you don’t mind. I’m just so passionate about this service, and how we are helping online therapists grow their practices and helping clients find the perfect online therapist for their needs. The directory continues to grow, leaps and bounds. We are now beating out some of the corporate services out there, like TalkSpace and BetterHelp.
CC: But anyway, we are doing quite well on the directory, so much so that I’m beginning to think that maybe we should start limiting the number of online therapists we bring on. As many of you know, the directory is very similar to Psychology Today and their directory. We are listing service where therapists pay a small monthly fee to display their profiles. And I don’t know about you, but sometimes I go on to Psychology Today, either my family back in Kentucky or our friends are looking for a therapist and want me to help them find someone or maybe I need to make a referral, and I go on there and it’s overwhelming how many psychotherapists are on there, hundreds and thousands sometimes, especially if you’re looking in a large metro area.
CC: And I’m starting to think maybe we should limit the number of therapists we bring on, like maybe 25 in each state or something like that. I don’t know, just an idea so that therapists are getting a good return on their investment, and we’re already seeing that online counselors are getting the referrals, and it’s beginning to pay for itself above and beyond what the monthly fee is, but I don’t know. We don’t want to dilute things. We want to make it a powerful directory to help clients, and it’s just something I’m beginning to think about. Open to feedback, let me know what you think. And if you are interested in joining, just head over to onlinecounseling.com and click on, “List my practice.” We have all sorts of great info on the site, and we can get you signed up in about 10 minutes. Okay, end of commercial. Thank you for your indulgence and support. I’m really overwhelmed and inspired by your support that we’ve gotten, and I’ve met so many amazing professionals. So this is just one of the best things I’ve ever done in my life and thank you.
CC: Okay, on to the interview. Here is John Wilson of onlinevents.co.uk all the way from Scotland.
CC: Hello and, again, welcome to the Online Counseling Podcast. I am incredibly excited to welcome our guest, John Wilson, all the way from Scotland. John, thank you for joining us today.
John Wilson: Well, Clay, thank you for having me here. I’m really pleased to be on the podcast. Having been… I am a listener of the podcast, it’s lovely to be here and join in as well.
CC: Oh, very good, I’m glad to have you. I think we initially met through Twitter, which I’m still learning, but I just saw you popping up everywhere on social media, different platforms, I’ve got to figure out who this person is and what he’s doing. So you run onlinevents.co.uk, you’re also an online therapist yourself. Let’s start with the Onlinevents, tell me a little bit about how you developed that and what exactly is it?
JW: It’s great to have an opportunity to talk to you about that, Clay, thank you. Well, Onlinevents is a company that I have developed with my business partner, Sandra, and we’re also a sibling team, so we’re brother and sister.
CC: Ah, okay.
JW: Yeah, which makes it interesting and fun. And we can also work well together, yeah. Most of the work that we do now, Clay, is interviewing colleagues in the helping professions, mostly online counselors and psychotherapists, but coaches, nurses, anybody who is interested in human development and transformation also. We will spend an hour on Skype video call, and that goes out life on our websites, so the colleagues can come along to the events, watch me and the colleague chatting away, but also participate through the chatroom.
JW: So if people got a comment or a question, they can add into the conversation, we can have that going on as well.
CC: Wow, so it’s a live event, and people can call in and ask questions. So I imagine you promote it in the days and weeks before the event, and then you’ve got participants online.
JW: Yeah, that’s right. This is why social media is so important to us, and, of course, Sandra is the real social media genius behind the online events and the reason why you see us everywhere. So this is great feedback for us Clay, thank you, to know that we are getting it…
CC: You certainly are, you certainly are, I see you everywhere. And the idea then, if I’m hearing you correctly, is to interview some professionals in the helping field, about their approach, maybe bringing a bit of education to the listeners. Kinda flush that out a little bit about the purpose of all this.
JW: Yeah, yeah. Well, we feel, or how this is developed is we’re taking different transactions together at the same time. So we want people who are writing and training and developing ideas to be able to come along, share those ideas with other colleagues in the field, but of course, as colleagues come alone joining, they bring themselves… There’s also a value in that, as they contribute their questions and their comments and their presence. So they take away some learning, but also they get to see… Well, maybe this is a book I want to read, or its a piece of training that I want to invest in. And so it’s a kind of easy way for colleagues to decide how they’re going to spend their training budget, and because it’s a two way transaction, the person we interview walks away with something and contribute something, and the audience contribute and walk away with something, we don’t charge for these live events, so colleagues can come along, they can enjoy the experience, they can contribute, and they’re managing these hands, and we feel like that really opens up the experience to as many people as possible. People who are in training, maybe just finished looking for work, so they don’t have much of a training budget, and also colleagues who have been in the field a long time.
CC: Yeah, absolutely, so it sounds like you’re really building a community of online mental health and helpers, professional helpers true?
JW: Yeah, that’s absolutely an intention, Clay, so we are absolutely all about community and about connection, and of course, this is as in the therapeutic field, many of us feel the attachment and having a place to belong is really important. And we do that through our Facebook group, that Sandra facilitates, so a lot of colleagues, they will come and spend some time with us there, hang out and have some connection. And we take our recordings, and they go in the library, and there’s a small charge for that. This is how we kinda keep the lights on, and that’s a place where people can catch up with the work that we’ve done and being a community.
CC: So if people are just finding this now, they can go back, and you’ve kept these recordings in a library, and they can pay. What’s the fee for that?
JW: So the fee is in British pounds.
CC: Okay.
JW: It’s always 6.99 a month or it’s 59.99 a year.
CC: Okay.
JW: So people can then dig into our recordings we’ve got… I’ve interviewed hundreds of colleagues, we’ve got nearly 500 hours of content.
CC: Wow, 500 hours.
JW: Yeah, so we, Sandra and I, have been busy getting it done for the last few years, and of course on those library pages people, once they watched the hour, they can type in their learning, what have been the selling points and learning for them. At the end of their learning year they can then download a list of everything that they’ve watched with some notes about the learning. And, of course, for some of the professional bodies here in the UK, anyway, being able to submit that kind of learning log or record is really important.
CC: Absolutely. And here in the US we would call that continuing education and to keep things sharp, find out what’s going on in the field, how things are developing. So this is the British version of some continuing education. And they can have five access to 500 hours for what sounds like, if my math is correct, certainly less than 10$ a month or less than $70 a year. They have access to 500 hours of education, correct?
JW: That’s right, when somebody’s got a few hours to finish off for the year, they could come in for a month, or maybe they’ve got more than a few hours to do. It’s gonna happen in those last month or two, and there’s plenty of hours, and they can buy a month from us, and maybe that’s enough, there’s no need to have longer. Of course, we’d love it if people come and spend their career with us, that’s really what we want. So we open our library up for students, without charge. They don’t get access to the learning log, if they get the free membership, but they can engage with all the content, and then hopefully, those colleagues will stay with us for the rest of their career.
CC: Oh, wow, that’s great.
JW: Be in the community.
CC: Students can go for free. Okay, that’s excellent, and I get a sense that what you’re doing is, you’re giving some in-depth training but you’re also giving maybe a taste. So if somebody has a new book out, or if somebody has a new seminar that they’re going to be giving on motivational interviewing, online therapy, or what have you, they’re gonna come on and give kind of an overview of that, correct?
JW: Yeah, this is exactly it, Clay. In some ways we feel like we’re a bit of a marketplace also for people to get a little taste there and see. So if anybody out there has just finishing a book or a piece of training they want to let colleagues to know about, and they would like to come and have a chat with us, we’d love to hear from them. Yeah.
CC: Yeah, I was just kinda poking around your library, and it just covers so many topics, and if you’re just… Now joining us, it’s onlinevents.co.uk, speaking with John Wilson. John, can you tell me a little bit about some of the topics that maybe stand out in your memory, in your library.
JW: Yeah. Wow, we’ve talked to so many people about so many thing. We just interviewed a colleague on Sunday, and this was a really moving hour where she talked about how sometimes we’re very used to thinking about grief when someone close to us dies, and as online therapists we’re used to facilitating that process as people grieve. But she was bringing some research and some thinking around what about when we have a profound illness or maybe a pain and really significant intervention into our bodies.
JW: And of course, hopefully, we survive that, but there’s still a profound grieving process and really helping us as therapists to think about, do we notice that with clients, like how they might be grieving, even though they’re alive? And in some of the language, like I don’t know what it’s like in the US, but in the UK we’re quite embarrassed about bodily functions, and so if we’ve got a client whose had… Maybe they’ve had some processes around their bowels, or they’ve had their body’s being changed by surgery, can we get into that language with the clients, or do we find our own embarrassment around their bodies? Somehow it keeps us away from having those conversations, if you like. So that was such a helpful geting into things that are… Yeah, maybe a little bit harder for us in our personal process. And, of course, we’ve interviewed some great sex therapists who are also helping us do some of that stuff, where getting into those more intimate cares of our life. In the last… Now, I’m just getting into this. Is that enough?
CC: No, that fascinating ’cause I think about how isolated some of the online therapists that I talked to, and how I feel isolated myself in my private practice, that I’ve gone through years and years of education, and of course I go on and I get my continuing education credits, but I’m in my little office in New York and doing my work to be able to delve into the thought processes of another therapist who specializes in something completely different and learned their approach, their vocabulary to begin to think differently. And what that does is it just put an extra tool in my tool belt to maybe think of things differently with my own clients or add a different process in my approach. I don’t specialize in sex therapy. I think it would be fascinating to listen to someone who does and their experiences, learn from them. And then when I have a client who maybe I can add some bit of value, because I think that this is incredible work that you’re doing.
JW: Well, thank you, Clay. I think really… Well, one of the things that it has given me, I guess, as a trainer and a therapist, is a broader base to work from. And one of the things I would be really excited about in the last year we’ve had a colleague who’s volunteered as a client, and he has had therapy with seven different therapists, and we’ve done those events, some of them have been live, some of them have been recorded. And then we’ll have therapy for about 20 minutes, and then the therapist will unpack their thought process around the session. So I think that’s also really interesting.
CC: Absolutely. Wow, that takes me back to grad school. Someone… This is what you did well, and this is what you… This is how a person-centered therapist would look at this versus Freudian versus… Well, that’s fascinating. What kind of feedback are you getting from the colleagues and the community?
JW: Yeah, well, I think the community love it, they love the live sessions. It has been great. We’ve done other stuff, like supervision, we did a couple of couple sessions. I think, though, where it’s really helpful for colleagues, and I think this is in some ways it mirrors mind process, like I’m a bit dyslexic, Clay. So reading is a real chore for me. I can read, but not really for pleasure. So I think, and I see this in my training work as well, I think there’s a high proportion of people who are attracted to this work, who are not necessarily readers either. This is a fascinating thing. So being able to learn in conversation is very helpful for me. I can read something. It’s a real challenge for me to retain it. If I have a conversation with someone about their work, and especially a passionate conversation, I probably will never forget it.
CC: Yeah, that’s a really good point. So many people, I think, are attracted to like an online therapy event or podcast because they just learn differently than someone who is going to be able to absorb text.
JW: Yeah, yeah. And that is not a critique of literature or books, not at all, and this is absolutely essential, but for someone with a learning style like mine, and this is part of the feedback we get. And of course I’ve enjoyed your podcast, Clay.
CC: Oh, thank you.
JW: For exactly the same reason, ’cause I’m listening to colleagues in the field, and it’s much easier for me to find a hook in myself for the dialogues that you’ve had with colleagues.
CC: Good, good.
JW: Yeah.
CC: So, where do you think Onlinevents… Where do you see it in three, five years? What’s the long-term goal and vision here?
JW: Well, we would love to be a learning platform for everyone in the helping professions, to widen that beyond counseling and psychotherapy, and we really see like, every job’s a people job, really. It doesn’t matter if you’re a therapist or… And I also have a cleaning business and had for a long time.
CC: Oh, really?
JW: When I’m out cleaning or working with my team or working with my clients, it’s still, it’s a people business.
CC: Yeah, yeah.
JW: And to be able to do content that supports people to develop their skills of being in relationship and being in dialogue, whether that is someone’s a nurse, a coach, an online therapist, or maybe they work in a human resources role in a big company, to be relevant across those different fields of work. So this is what Sandra and I would love. We’ll see whether we can spread our wings. Yeah.
CC: Okay.
JW: Yeah, but this is what we would like.
CC: That’s incredible. And just kinda going to your library, I see that you also had one of my friends on there, Philippa Weitz, talking about online counseling. She’s a huge leader of the industry in the UK and Europe.
JW: Yeah, absolutely, I just presented at the last OCTIA conference, and I saw Philippa there in Edinburgh, which was a conference all about online counseling, and she’s doing tremendous work, isn’t she? In terms of training and writing and…
CC: Absolutely. I was so honored to have her on the podcast, and her recent book, Psychotherapy 2.0. So I’ll do a little plug for Pippa, that Psychotherapy 2.0 is a wonderful resource for people who are thinking about online counseling, online therapy. So there’s that.
JW: Yeah. That’s a great plug, Clay.
CC: So let’s talk just a little bit. You also have a private practice, face-to-face and online therapy. Tell me a little bit about that.
JW: Yeah, so I have just a small private practice to make sure I’m still in the field, Clay. So I’m in my counseling room right now, which is in a little town called Bathgate, which is halfway between Edinburgh and Glasgow. So we’re in the center of Central Scotland. I see clients here, and I also see clients and supervisees using video conference platform also. So, yeah.
CC: What platform do you use?
JW: I would use VSee.
CC: Ah, okay. Do you like it?
JW: As our platform. Yes.
CC: There’s some hesitancy there.
JW: Yeah. I mean, I’m open to what the clients like. It’s a little tricky to use. I think… I mean, I’ve heard this on your podcast. I’ve also been on lots of dialogues with colleagues. I think, we’re still to get the solution that feels like the one that’s easy to use for everyone and ticks all the boxes, in terms of HIPAA compliance and encryption, and yeah, I don’t think we’re all the way there yet.
CC: Okay.
JW: Would you agree with that, Clay?
CC: I would agree with that, I would agree with that. I think that, and for the listeners who haven’t heard of Vsee, it’s kind of tricky to spell. It’s V like Victor. S, like Sam. And E, like echo. E, like echo. So it’s like, I see you, it’s V, like video Vsee, and they are a platform like Skype. But they’re compliant with HIPPA. They’re encrypted. I believe that they are a platform that you need to download onto your computer, and your client also needs to download. It’s a quick little download, but we’re hoping to have them on the podcast to talk about their services soon. I’ve been using lately is doxy.me and been really happy with them. But I think that, like you, John, we have to experiment on what is good for us, what do we feel comfortable with, and where our clients are. So it sounds like you’re still on that journey of finding the perfect platform.
JW: Exactly. I don’t think it has arrived yet, like almost an iPhone platforms, it’s just easy to use. I know there are other phones out there but, yeah, something that ticks all the boxes. I will definitely check out doxy. That sounds really interesting, and I think this has been such… It’s such an interesting time in our field, Clay, because I think there’s been a real passion around finding a secure platform, and I think that’s really, really important. And I have a belief that if a human can build it, another human can break it. And I think that has happened more recently with some of the platforms that colleagues have been very passionate about, “Well, this is absolutely secure. It’s unbreakable.” And then, “Oops.” So, I think, as a field, we also have to be realistic about the tools that we use, and yeah, pick carefully, pick responsibly, but also be realistic about just how sophisticated the technology is to break platforms if someone really wants to.
CC: Okay. Yeah, that’s good feedback. Now you mentioned that you were recently at a conference for online therapy, and I didn’t catch the name. What was the conference?
JW: So this conference is called OCTIA. O-C-T-I-A.
CC: Oh.
JW: Which stands for online counseling and therapy online. I think that’s all. I think I must be missing a letter somewhere.
CC: Yeah, go ahead.
JW: Yeah, it’s a conference that’s coming of an organization that Pippa is part of, actually, called ACTO, Association for counseling and therapy online, and that is a British organisation for therapists who do work online to come together, a professional association, and it supports this conference every year. I think it’s in its 9th year, and this conference is where online events was born, because I was part of the… I was opted onto the executive committee to help run the first conference, and we felt, well, if it’s about online therapy this conference should be online, but back in 2008, 2009, it costs so much money to do that I had a thought that often get me into trouble, Clay, which is, “How hard can this be?”
[laughter]
JW: So my dad had a good camera, I bought a good laptop and we livestreamed the first OCTIA conference, and this was the birth of Onlinevents. We have since gone our separate ways amicable, of course, and the conference was streamed live this year, the recordings are available from the OCTIA web site. So I think it’s really great here, in Britain, that we’ve tried to also learn and the way that we offer for clients. If we offer therapy online that we also try and do some of our landing in that way, too.
CC: Absolutely… And I remember Philippa talking about ACTO, and I’d forgotten about OCTIA Conference. But we’ll put those in the show notes, because I do think that Great Britain is a little bit of ahead, that you have created an association for learning and professional guidance for your members with this association. So with the conference that you recently attended, did anything strike you as a new development or something interesting you might want to share with the listeners?
JW: A good question. We have great presentations. If colleagues are listening or presenting, and I miss them out, I apologize already, but we finished off with a really interesting presentation of by working with clients who have chronic illnesses, and it makes it hard for them to come consistently to face to face therapy. So perhaps someone maybe they’ve got enough energy one day, and not the next, so the… Or maybe they’ve got consistently low energy, because of their chronic illness that may be working by email or seeing a therapist where they don’t need to travel is really, really helpful.
JW: We also had an exploration of John Sewer’s work and the psyche, really pulling that apart and seeing how that works or might be relevant in more recent experiences. Platforms have developed since Sewer did this work, like Facebook and the social media platforms, and really think, I hadn’t caught this in John’s work. It has been a while since I’ve read him, where he gets us thinking about the personality of the human being in constellations and how that might move around the different parts of the human and really thinking about how we’re impacted by our culture’s changing because of how we interact online and how that might change us as people as the constellations and their personality. Adjust, for that culture, and so that was really interesting and being open to that and ourselves as therapists and open to that and our clients.
CC: Absolutely. I’ve been fascinated by the Disinhibition issue and how they are looking at this and how it is applying to all of us who are online, but certainly the effect on online counseling. So yeah, I love that you all are going deeper into that. So let’s back up for a second. Your online therapy practice, how are people typically finding you, any marketing tips for people who have online practices?
JW: Yeah, well, this is what I was presenting at the conference, really. I think people are really underestimating the impact of Facebook on the current culture, especially in the developed world, and I’m using that as a place to reach out into communities and to find the clients that we can best serve, and to do that in a way where we’re not putting up stuff on Facebook which is about, “I am a therapist, come and get a discounted session right now.” You know, this is not going to work, and, of course, ethically, we have to be very careful about how we communicate ourselves. But most of the people who come and do some work with me, it’s more about that people have come to experience me as someone that they can trust in their online network, and I think that is the thing for us to learn as therapists, how do we communicate resources and some education out into our communities, in the way that when people then become ready for therapy or they have someone in their cycle and their network who’s now ready to engage with a therapist that we become the person that they want to recommend.
JW: And I use an example of someone that who is, I wanted to keep this really neutral. Perhaps someone who is a couples therapist. They might be offering not specific advice to individuals through their Facebook platform, but more generic advice that someone might find helpful in their relationship. Maybe resources that they might find helpful. So when someone then… And, of course, as we all do in relationships hit those rocky times, and maybe feel like coming into some couples therapy would be useful. There’s already someone there that they trust.
CC: Absolutely.
JW: And that they feel would be a good source.
CC: Absolutely.
JW: And, of course, and I think alongside that, and I’m sure you’ve had this experience quite where people come for face-to-face therapy and think, “What is this gonna be like? Am I gonna have to lie down on a bed or something? Where you’re gonna sit behind me?” But of course, my clients have already had the opportunity of seeing a picture of my therapy room, and sometimes I will do a little Facebook Live video, maybe talking about my work from this room, so people can see the seats. They already know how I sound and what I look like, so by the time they show up in the room, there are no surprises.
CC: And I’ve heard that over and over from some of the gurus out there of teaching therapists how to grow their practice. And one is, the conversation begins long before they walk in the door, reading your blog, reading your website, looking at your photos. The more familiar that they get with you and with your space and your approach and thoughts, they warm up to the idea to reducing anxiety and fear, and they can gradually get that comfort level of saying, “I want to work with this person,” and also to what you’re saying is adding so much value out there, whether it’s on your Facebook or whatever social media platform that you’re using, is that you’re providing tips on how to have a good date night, or how to resolve conflict with your partner, and you’re adding that value out there for free. And that’s part of the process of marketing and bringing people in, I think.
JW: Absolutely, and I think what I would like to see is that, or maybe my vision is more of what I might be excited about is that I think it’d be great if everybody on the social media platforms felt like they knew a therapist that they could ask for a recommendation for their partner or for the family member, for their friend. I think certainly here in the UK, trying to find someone still feels like a difficult process. I think even going through the directories, we’ve got great directories here, but it’s very hard to then pick someone from thousands and thousands of therapists, and I think the social media platforms allow us, or could allow us, to create that network where someone feels like, “Oh, yeah, I know John. I’m not gonna work with him, but I know someone who might,” or, “I know John doesn’t do this kind of therapy, but maybe he might know someone who does.” And I think in that, they can offer their recommendation, the past could be verified on the directories, and then the therapy can be started. And I think that’s a real opportunity for us as therapists to be much further into our communities and be that trusted source of information. Perhaps not for referrals directly to us, but I think it would increase the engagement with therapy, certainly here in the UK, I think that could be… And perhaps in other countries too.
CC: Absolutely, absolutely. I’d like to have a little Rolodex, and of course with the directory, I’ve got a really big Rolodex of therapists that ’cause I’ve got friends and family, business contacts, that will ask for recommendations. They certainly wouldn’t work with me because of our contact, and so then to have that Rolodex and say, “I’ve got the right person for you,” is I think is really resourceful and important for our community. So quickly, what kind of events do you have coming up on the online events program?
JW: Yeah, so in a couple weeks time, we’ve got an event on working with survivors of torture. And so this will be the first time we’ve done a piece of work in that area, which I think is gonna be really important. That week also, we’ve got a whole day on working with trauma, so we’ve got eight practitioners coming to…
CC: Wow!
JW: Talk with us. In July we’re going to do a whole week. We do the international supervision week, so we’ve got colleagues from all over the world coming to talk about supervision, and I think they’re also great opportunities for colleagues who are getting into working online to come, and I know a lot of people who are just learning about online counseling will come and spend some time in our chatroom as a way of getting used to text-based communication. So I was thinking about the colleagues who will be listening for this chat, and I think that’s a muscle that takes a while to build and flex. It’s often we’re in audio conversations with our clients face-to-face. We might then do a video conferencing, but that’s also a place to get used to talking with people. We can’t say just see, just by using text. So colleagues are looking for places to come and try out that skill, come along to the events, get in the chatroom and chat with us and build that muscle and that skill as well.
CC: That’s a really good point. Wow! I’m just so impressed with what you have to offer, and if you haven’t had a chance, check out onlinevents.co.uk, over 500 hours of educational material that is fascinating. Whatever you’re looking for. You have such a range of topics on there, John, that anyone is going to find something, and you can really get lost. [laughter] You can spend way too much time, but I find it fascinating for those of us that consider ourselves lifetime learners. Here is just sometimes I can lose myself in a library. And you’ve created this online therapy library with some of the world’s experts that you pick their brains, and it’s fascinating. So again, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. This has been invaluable, and I wish you all the best with this.
JW: Well, Clay, thank you so much for having us. I hope some colleagues will come, and also if they’ve got some ideas come and join the program, come and have the conversation with us and get their ideas in the library. We’d love that as well.
CC: Absolutely. I think that we’ll put your contact information on the show notes that if you feel like you have something unique and interesting that you would like to contribute to the conversation and their library of resources, please contact John. He’s always looking.
[chuckle]
JW: Yeah, and you’re gonna come along soon too, Clay? We’re going to get the opportunity to have you in our…
CC: Yes, absolutely, absolutely. We’re gonna do a little bit of talking about online therapy and the challenges and benefits. I look forward to that.
JW: Great. Well, thank you so much for today, Clay.
CC: Thanks John. Have a great day.
Online Events
Association for Counselling and Therapy Online
Annual Online Counselling Conference