Episode 35 – Jeffrey Frank, LCSW Sarasota Psychotherapy

Online Counseling in Florida

Welcome to the Online Counseling Podcast, exploring the practice of counseling online therapy through technology. Here’s your host, Clay Cockrell.

Clay Cockrell: Hello, and welcome to the Online Counseling Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. If you are like me, I have a limited amount of time in my day to listen to podcasts, and I’m honored that you chose to spend some time with me, as we explore the world of online therapy and how technology is impacting psychotherapy. We have some major announcements coming up, as I alluded to in the previous podcast, and we’re not quite ready to talk about some of them, which are pretty exciting. But I will say that one of the big changes that is coming to the Online Therapy Directory, which this podcast is associated with, is that we are launching a blog. Over and over, we hear that websites need to offer valuable content to visitors, and the visitors that are coming to the directory, and there are more and more of them every day, are looking for answers and information and, ultimately, a referral to a qualified therapist. But while they are there, perhaps we, as a community, can bring them some basic information on mental health, depression, anxiety, relationships, etcetera.

CC: So, as an added benefit to the members of the directory, we are creating a blog where you can write and submit articles about these issues and how you address them. So there are two benefits here, one, we are going to be educating our visitors with valuable information on topics that they are concerned with, and two, you, as an online therapist, are going to be able to highlight your practice and approaches, and draw a little attention to your voice. So if you would like to contribute, please let me know. We are asking that articles be between 700 and 1200 words, and you can submit them to me. My email address is [email protected]. That’s clay, C-L-A-Y, @onlinecounseling.com.

CC: As many of you know, I’m an online therapist myself, and I started this podcast and directory to help other therapists grow their practices and to help people around the world to gain access to trained and high quality practitioners. The podcast, the directory, the blog, all of it goes to that end. And while it’s been slow growth over the past year, we are now gaining all sorts of momentum. And I’m really proud of the community we are growing. It’s mutually supportive, and we are growing and learning together. And the site is really becoming one of the leading, if not the leading website for online counseling. So thank you for being a part of this. So, along those lines, today, I’m launching a new project for the podcast. I’m interviewing actual members of the directory to explore their practice and their journey to and experience with online counseling. This way, we can get to know one another and highlight individual members and their approaches. So if you would like to be a guest on the podcast, please let me know.

CC: And for our very first guest in this series, I’m so pleased that I picked Jeffrey Frank in Sarasota, Florida, because he really is the prototype of so many of you who are beginning to go down this road, which will become apparent as we go along in the interview. But he is an incredibly dynamic, fun, and gifted therapist, with his own unique approach, and I’m so glad he was able to spend some time with us. Here’s the interview. I hope you enjoy it.

CC: Hello, and welcome to the Online Counseling Podcast. I am thrilled to have with us, as a guest today, a psychotherapist from Sarasota, Florida. Saratoga… No.

Jeffrey Frank: Sarasota.

CC: Sarasota. I, as a New Yorker…

JF: Saratoga’s a much different climate. Right, right. [chuckle]

CC: As a New Yorker, I get that confused, but Sarasota. So welcome and… To Jeffrey Frank. So thank you for joining us.

JF: Sure, glad to be here. And it’s funny to hear you say from Sarasota, ’cause that’s new to me, ’cause I had… I’m recent, I’m a transplant from Washington, DC. So I think that was the first time I ever heard someone refer to me as from Sarasota. So I have to get up to speed with my identity here.

CC: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, I guess, was last winter your first Florida winter?

JF: My first Florida winter is this winter. I moved here in March, so kinda beared out the winter in DC with my eyes on this move. So every day, I’m always… Now that we are in the middle of winter, I’m always looking at the temperature up in DC and comparing it to here, usually, while I’m sitting in my t-shirt and shorts.

CC: I love it. I love it. My wife and I are decamping to Miami in about two weeks.

JF: Oh, okay.

CC: So I’ll be working from Miami for a month. I just can’t stand the cold anymore.

JF: You get it, yeah. [chuckle]

CC: So I wanna talk to you a little bit. You are an online therapist, you’re a member of the directory, and we’re trying to highlight some of our current members. Tell us a little bit about your journey to becoming a psychotherapist. And you’re a licensed clinical social worker, correct?

JF: Yes, that’s right. Oh yeah, I was gonna… I was wondering if you’re asking if I was… My journey towards being an online therapist or towards being a psychotherapist, which I know, I guess it’s the latter. [chuckle]

CC: Well, let’s start with the psychotherapist, in general, and then we’ll kind of move into the online work.

JF: Right. Okay. Yeah, it’s actually a second career for me. So I’ve been working independently for the past 10 years, so I’m more mature, and… But kind of new to the field, I think 10 years is kind of… That was my… My original clinical supervisor, when I was very first starting out, she said to me, “It takes about 10 years to feel confident in this.” And, of course, I was kind of eager and older and a little more arrogant, I was like, “Yeah, that… Maybe for you, 10 years, but I [chuckle] gotta get this under my belt much quicker.” And she’s about right. [laughter] She was about right. I’m just kind of feeling like, “Okay, I’m in a good place and can really help.”

CC: Wow. So what was your first career?

JF: Something else. [chuckle]

CC: Okay. We’ll stick with that then. [chuckle]

JF: Okay.

CC: So you completed your studies… Where did you go to school?

JF: My social… Well, undergraduate, I graduated from NYU, New York University, that was in the ’80s, and then I took… It was actually… My major was Psychology, so I was on this route, but then took some time off for 25 years to engage in something else, and then I came back to it, but it was kind of… It was prompted by me feeling kind of depressed. I had been in a career for 20-something years, and had really focused on it, and was… I felt I was taking it seriously, I was developing, and had all these goals in mind, which, at the end of the 20 years or so, or even more than that… And I started to hit those goals, but I think I never thought, like, “Okay, and then what about the next day?” [chuckle] After, when I hit those goals. And I started to feel like I was just spinning my wheels, I was doing just fine financially, and feeling confident and not stressed, ’cause I felt competent in what I was doing. I did not realize that that could be problematic too. So I started, yeah, losing interest. And I could have just stuck it out, just with inertia and security. It was just fine. But I think I have this tendency to wanna screw things up for myself, and so I said, “Why don’t I look for something else?” And it was such a great decision, in retrospect, really hard decision and scary and completely unknown and risky. And I pulled the trigger, and have not looked back at all, and I’m so grateful that I did that. I’m really happy for what I am right now.

CC: That’s great. Very rewarding, I would imagine.

JF: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. So I feel like I did and completed one chapter, and now I’m in the midst of another, and that’s just kind of how I hope my life kinda keeps proceeding.

CC: Got it. So you got your BA in Psychology from NYU.

JF: Right, right, right.

CC: And then a Master’s…

JF: And then, yeah, I went… Yeah, I’m sorry, I went back to school, probably 30 years later to Howard University in Washington, DC. I got my Master’s in Social Work.

CC: Okay. Now, did you go straight into private practice or did you do some maybe clinic work or what was your career path there?

JF: Well, my eye was always on private practice but, of course, doesn’t work that way, you get your degree and, open up an office. So I did some agency work in a few different kinds of setting. I did addiction work, one of my internships in school was with foster children, like I said, addiction work. I worked at a facility called the Women’s Center in Washington DC, which is not just for women but… And a lot of women sit on the staff there, obviously. So, yeah, I had a nice kind of assortment of different placements that helped me hone and focus on what I… The population, type of work I wanted to do.

JF: And another thing, this is not exactly what you were asking, but as far as work experience, but the real gift to where I find myself right now was being a student, postgraduate at the Washington School of Psychiatry, which is… It’s been around since the ’30s or ’40s. I think it was founded by Harry Stack Sullivan. It has all this wonderful, rich kind of psychoanalytic history to it. And that was a great place. I feel like, when I got my degree, I was not really qualified to be a therapist, and that this additional training did give me the confidence and skills and techniques that I absolutely needed. So I was grateful that that existed, I was grateful that I was in a city where that existed, and had some great mentors and supervisors that are still part of my life right now. And I know we’re gonna be talking about the business end of this, but it was also a great network place. It was a community, an instant community that I found myself in, that I was able to emerge from and hit the ground running, as far as practicing and having connections and support and education and training and supervision, all that kind of stuff.

CC: That’s wonderful.

JF: It is.

CC: It’s interesting… And I don’t always talk about this, but I don’t always get a chance to talk with men in the field. And I get a sense that there’s not a lot of us. When I went to my graduate program, I think there was one other man in my program.

JF: Yeah, yeah.

CC: You talked about working at the Women’s Center in Washington. What is your experience? Because I get a sense sometimes that some people come to me in private practice because they are specifically looking for a man.

JF: Sure.

CC: So sometimes there’s an edge in marketing-wise, just… Which is unusual. What’s your experience with gender, then?

JF: Right. Yeah, that’s a good point, which I haven’t thought about in a while, but I do remember, the class that I was in, I took a two-year training program at the Washington School, and I was the only male in the class. And even teachers that we had, it was mostly female, but I think I… I think I recognized that as just the way it was, even in my social work program, that I was in a more female-dominated industry, if I can call it that. And… But I have been told, even when I got here to Sarasota and started meeting people here, they said, “Oh, great that you’re a man [chuckle], ’cause we don’t have a lot.” It’s more women and more female practitioners than males. So that’ll be helpful for you, it’ll give you a leg up, I guess, as far as getting your practice going. I don’t know that I’ve felt that that’s been an advantage, that I’ve experienced that or the data supports that, but I do… Where it seems like it does come into play, and it is kind of explicitly expressed in a… Is with couples work.

CC: Ah, yeah.

JF: And, a lot of times, is with a man and a woman, that it’s usually the women that kind of initiate going to therapy. And I’ll… We’ll get those calls, “Well, I don’t know how he’s gonna feel about it, but I think he’ll be more comfortable with a man.” That’s pretty common. So I think maybe that would be kind of the advantage or difference.

CC: Yeah.

JF: I think that…

CC: I just talk with a lot of people on how do we differentiate ourselves as online therapists, and finding every little thing, whether it’s our training or our gender or our orientation or somehow to say this is how I differentiate myself in the marketplace, and I think that that’s important in looking at all of our strengths and differences.

JF: Right, right, right. Well, it’s…

CC: So how… I’m sorry, go ahead.

JF: Well, I was actually gonna kind of be contrary to that, ’cause that’s a kind of guy I am [chuckle], is that I kind of… I kind of resist being too labelled. I can’t help being labelled, just my appearance, who I am… You know, it’s kind of, that comes with it.

CC: Sure.

JF: But I’m a gay man, and I, in DC, when I was first… Tell me, “Oh, great. We can send you all the gay… ” And I… Gay clients, and gay issues. And I was like, “Well, you could, but it’s not really what I’m most probably interested in, it’s not like I’m excluding it.

CC: Right.

JF: But… I am a gay therapist, but I don’t feel like I had a gay practice, or want that. And I guess same with these other… With me being a male person versus a female. I know that’s gonna be a factor, it’s unavoidable, but I’m not looking at that as kind of my selling point or what I’m kind of offering.

CC: Absolutely.

JF: ‘Cause I also had… I also had… I’m thinking about a few women that I’ve had, who’ve come in, they said, “I really was not thinking a male therapist would be good for me or that this would work.” And so, I appreciate now people kind of challenging themselves to see me, regardless. And I think it’s always been successful. And that they’ve challenged and gone against what they thought was gonna be comfortable for them, and took the uncomfortable route, I think, paid off. So anyway, I… Long story to hear…

CC: No, no, that’s…

JF: Hear me saying, to say that… To look at what we have going into it. I think, I actually kind of resist that, in some ways.

CC: Oh, I completely identify with that. Absolutely.

JF: Okay.

CC: And I think that what a lot of online therapists are struggling with is how do I niche, how do I say, “This is what I’m drawn to.” And it’s so important to understand what you bring to the table and where you want that to impact your practice or not.

JF: Right, right, right, right.

CC: So tell me how long have you been in private practice?

JF: Yeah, I think I count 10 years, like two years post-graduate.

CC: Okay.

JF: Yeah, 10 years.

CC: And the business end of it, was it difficult for you or did that… Something… Did that come easy?

JF: I’m going to say easy because of my… I did… I started this late, I already had another career that did involve looking at things from a business lens, and actually managed people and budgets and expenses and income, and kept my eye on all of that, that it wasn’t something that I kind of had to kinda catch up and learn, it was something I kinda came in with.

CC: Good, great, great, great.

JF: And I think even some of my peers at the time who were just starting out, might’ve been younger and not had that experience, I think they looked at me like, “Wow, you’re doing this, and how, and you have it figured out, and you have these systems in place, and all… ” That… I think that was a fortunate thing that I didn’t have to labor over or get too concerned about, was kind of already built into my nervous system, I guess.

CC: Yeah. [chuckle] So you’re licensed in Washington DC, and I’m assuming now you’re licensed in Florida.

JF: Right, yep.

CC: Are there are other licenses that you have? Were you also in Maryland or Virginia? I think a lot of DC people are multi-licensed in that area.

JF: Yeah, no. That’s a good point, yeah. I saw a lot of people, not just in DC, and they would come in from the suburbs. So we consider Maryland and Virginia the suburbs of DC. [chuckle] But, yeah, no, I was just licensed in DC only and I was just practicing only in DC, and now I’m in Florida. And so I have both… I kept both those licenses, and…

CC: Was it difficult for you to get the license in Florida? A lot of people are asking questions like, “I wanna get other states’ licensure so I can do some online work in other states.” Was that a hard process?

JF: It was pretty simple. I think we’re lucky. I don’t know, for everybody else, but we’re just lucky that so many things are online and available. I started the process before I made the move. It was some forms to fill out online, and then I had to take some additional classes, which was all online, and it spits out the certificate and I put all that together. And self… It was a self… It wasn’t… What do you call those? It was like they’re online courses, so I could take them as quickly or slowly as I wanted to. I’m kind of impatient, so I went… Went as quickly as I could and got it done, submitted everything, and it was just a few classes online, getting those certificates, and doing the applications, and credit card money, and of course, and that was it. So it was pretty simple and painless, which… But I’m sure, back in the day, when you didn’t have all this online stuff, it was more laborious, and standing in line to… Sending stuff by mail, and all… So it really happened quickly and it was pretty easy.

CC: Okay, that’s great. I’m in contact with somebody that is in the process of getting licensed in all 50 states and…

JF: Geez. Great.

CC: It’s just a wealth of information on what’s easy, what’s not, what’s got reciprocities.

JF: Yeah, that seems like a nightmare. But did you notice, did you find out whether… Is it… Oh, is it different? Much different experiences in each state, or…

CC: Yeah, I think it is very different from state to state, and I’m hoping to have him on the podcast to talk about that process and the cost of it, but… Okay. So let’s…

JF: And the renewals.

CC: And the renewals, exactly, and those continuing education credits. So let’s talk about your journey to online counseling. When did you start? What was it like for you? Why were you drawn to that?

JF: When it started? It started with me actually being on the receiving end. My supervisor, who I still work with from time to time, was not in Washington DC, and so we would do Skype sessions for supervision. And also part of the particular model that I work with and the training behind it is that we’re videoing our sessions and we’re using them in supervision. So it was a lot of technology that I was confronted with to get that kind of supervision. So, yeah, we’re doing Skype sessions. I was also running a disc with the feed, the video of the session. So it was a lot of stuff.

JF: So it wasn’t… So I came at it from being the recipient of that resource. And then when I… I started using it just gradually in DC. I don’t know if it’s particular to there, but a lot of people travel for work, and even internationally, state department people. So, of course, there would be big lapses when they’d be out of town, and we’re trying to come up with ways to continue our work. And in the beginning… So, 10 years ago, I remember doing phone therapy every once in a while, and then now that’s archaic. And so segueing more into the online and video.

JF: So it happened gradually that way. And then, of course, when I’ve decided to make this move from DC to Florida, I started thinking about it, and was still in the midst of treatment with people in DC, and let them know, well in advance, that I would be leaving. And so we started to talk about… Some with termination and some with… Could we continue on. So this became more prominent and important to me, ’cause I knew if I was gonna make this break, I need to start from scratch here. But now, with the online, I didn’t necessarily need to start from scratch, I already bring my practice with me. But I didn’t wanna force it on people.

JF: So it took a lot of time before I left. I think it was at least four or five months before I was actually gonna leave that I started to present it to my patients as an option to do online therapy. So I just let them know that I was gonna be leaving and would look for responses, and, of course, use that issue at hand clinically. So that was helpful and useful. But then talking about, if they wanted to continue, what would it be like? And the option of online therapy came up.

JF: And so, ultimately, the way I presented it was that we would call it an experiment, not that they were making a commitment, or I was making a commitment, ’cause I wasn’t sure how I would feel about it, ’cause I had only done it in short ad hoc ways. I never committed to online. So, that way, it gave me an out, [chuckle] if it wasn’t them too. But, for the most part, it worked just fine. And still… Almost a year later, I’m still doing online counseling with some people. I have added new people on from DC. So, yeah, I continued to keep a presence up there and will still get referrals. So it’s worked out well, but it’s not perfect.

CC: Right. We’ll speak a bit about, clinically, what was it like for you moving with a patient from face-to-face connection to now, on using an online platform? There’s a degree of adjustment, I think.

JF: Absolutely.

CC: What did you notice?

JF: Well, just as a little preface to that, I did some of the patients that I work with in DC, before I actually made the move and before we committed ourselves to the online, we actually did video sessions while I was still in DC, and then came back to do face-to-face so we could debrief about it. So I really tried to be very incremental and careful with it, especially the people that I had already established an in-person relationship with.

CC: Brilliant. Brilliant.

JF: It brought up a lot of good clinical stuff for us to chew on but also made sure that when I did make the ultimate exit that we were clear on how this is all gonna work. We weren’t surprised after the fact. But, yeah, there’s some downsides to online counseling, especially if I already had the relationship face-to-face, it wasn’t so difficult to make the adjustment. But I now have worked with people that I have not ever been with in person, so that’s interesting also.

CC: I just think that’s a great idea, to gradually… When you’re shifting from face-to-face, you’ve created that connection, clinically, and now you’re going to change the dynamic in such a way, that… To do that gradually, and to let them adjust… Both of you adjust to this. Because what I’ve experienced, as an online therapist, is it’s slightly different but different enough that we need to talk about it. And I’m still seeing you, I’m still hearing you, but just a little different dynamic. So let’s talk about it and make sure that we’re okay with it.

JF: Absolutely, yeah.

CC: So what percentage of your practice now is online therapy?

JF: I would have to say, right now, it’s around 50%, but that’s a rough estimate. But, right now, my current in-person bricks and mortar practice here is not that big. So it’s like half and half. I’m hoping… I’m gonna keep the online stuff going, but it’s not my favorite, just personally. I’d rather be in a room with the whole person sitting right there in confinement, ’cause I feel like online, whether it’s someone’s office or home, patients have a way of spilling. I had a woman… If I could talk, she… We established our relationship in DC, in person, and then now we’ve been continuing here. So I noticed her progressively… First, she’d be at a desk and then, over time, she was on a couch. And then, recently, she was… We were doing our session, then, all of a sudden, I just realized she was laying her head on a pillow and speaking to me [chuckle], and communicating. She was very comfortable, and making it… It was like… It brought up a lot of things that we could have taken up at that time, but just… But then I had to look at how I watched that gradually happen, where I was intending… Or asking her about where she was and how she was feeling about… Physically, let’s say. So just brings up some things that would not necessarily happen in my office.

CC: Absolutely.

JF: Pretty client, and started taking a nap while they’re… Anyway, so… Or there were… It’s just interesting stuff.

CC: Interesting stuff. The things that we, for years, didn’t have to think about, ’cause they came to our office and sat with our little plant, and all that…

JF: That’s right.

CC: Is just making sure that they are in a confidential environment. Nobody’s going overhear their part of it, the eye contact aspect of looking into the camera, the lighting. The things that we just have to adjust, I think. So are people coming to you now or are you getting some referrals of… All online therapy, that they only want to see you online? What’s happening?

JF: It’s interesting what’s emerging and what I’m learning. I know I had a few parents of adult kids graduating college contact me, then they wanted to find out my availability online, and feeling like it would be less intimidating or more acceptable to their kids who, of course, live virtual lives, mostly, to see an online therapist in the medium that they’re mostly hanging out in. And so I think that is an advantage, especially with younger generation.

CC: I’ve seen the same thing.

JF: So that’s like an obvious step that I think… My predecessors, I think, were poo-pooing this, but I think it’s like the bus has left the station, where they’re gonna get on it or not. And it’s just dealing with reality rather than what we hope and want… Wanting. But I did have… Just yesterday, I had a woman call me, who’s local here in Florida, and she started to tell me what she was looking for. And it sounds like she was looking for someone to see her son, who is not in this state, and that they were having a conflict, and she wanted to suggest him to see a therapist, and was wondering if I would do it online.

JF: And I said, “Well, right now, and the way things are set up, there’s no laws yet, but I’m looking at these guidelines and I’m only practicing in the same state where my patients are.” And she said, “Well, that’s fine ’cause I wanna do this online therapy session with all three of us,” to help them with their relationship, and which I didn’t get right away. So she’s gonna… So, in a way, she’ll be my patient, and it will be local, which I don’t know if we’ll be sitting in the same room. But, anyway… But it was interesting how people are utilizing this, like, “Oh, I can have a session with my son. I don’t have to fly out to wherever he is, and I can… ” So she put this together. She was ahead of the game before I was, even.

CC: Oh, that’s great.

JF: So people are really being creative with utilizing this.

CC: That’s great, yeah. And it’s interesting, there are some states that are allowing college students to… Their residency may be back where they grew up. Each state is different, so…

JF: Yeah, yeah. I’m learning that.

CC: So we’ve got a lot of the Epstein Becker & Green, the law firm in DC, has come up with a lot of those guidelines, and those are on the website if people are listening and want to look into it. So we’re really pleased that they let us put that up. What platform do you use to connect?

JF: I use a platform called doxy.me. It’s D-O-X-Y dot M-E.

CC: I’ve heard really good things about them. What’s your experience been?

JF: Great. It seems like it’s as good as it can be. Sometimes there’s connection problem, but I think that’s with any platform. But the great thing about it, it’s all HIPAA checked out, so that’s all taken care of. But also what I feel is great about it is there is nothing to download. It’s just a URL, so you don’t have to have this special thing on your computer. It does have an app on the iPhone or the smartphones, and the tablets, but just for a laptop or a computer, it’ll just go to the URL and you’re there. There’s this virtual waiting room where they can sign in. It’s not like Skype where you just have to pick up and answer. They can be sitting there, waiting for you, and you see that they’re there. And then when your time is ready, you click in and start the session. And so, I think it’s been… So it’s convenient, it’s easy, and it’s comparable, I think, to these other ones, where it just feels much more… And also, I think, the fact that it has a waiting room, it has a kind of a medical professional look to it, that’s specifically for this purpose, is also… Just puts a little more credibility into it.

CC: Absolutely.

JF: And for the basic, just like, “Oh, a lot of these things are basic, no cost.” So that’s also effective too.

CC: Absolutely. Had you played around with any of the other platforms or experimented with any of them?

JF: Yeah, I used VSee. Obviously, I was using Skype when I was doing my own supervision. VSee just seems a little more temperamental than doxy, and so I did make that switch, but I had used both. I think that was the only two that I used. And then I know it’s not ideal and not HIPAA-compliant, but I do have a smartphone or a phone as a backup. I always let people know that we need to have a backup, a contingency plan for when things go offline.

CC: That’s a good point, and I think a lot of people don’t have that, because whether it’s storms or just… Sometimes there’s just a bad connection, to being able to have, “Okay, if this happens, this is how we’re gonna continue.”

JF: Absolutely, yeah.

CC: Good, good. So now that you’re in Florida, you’ve learned the… You’ve been there for almost a year. Any particular regulations that you are aware of in Florida on online counseling? Some states like Georgia has specific things. Are you aware of any?

JF: Yeah, I do try to keep alert to what’s going on, ’cause I know it’s kinda still evolving. As far as I know, it’s kosher to do it in Florida, but what I do myself, because it is kind of this evolving thing, what I keep going back to, to see if I’m staying in line and lawful and all that stuff, is I just go right to my malpractice policy. And I actually had them write me a letter that specifically outlines what I’m gonna be covered for if there’s a problem. And the specific line is that they will only cover if I’m licensed in the state where the patient is residing, or those state regulations, which means that if I… I just found this out in Indiana. I can work… According to the Indiana regs, I can work with someone in Indiana for up to, I think, 10 sessions. So it’s like a limit before you’d have to get a license there.

CC: Oh, wow.

JF: And I do use… My model is a short-term model, so depending on the case, I’d wanna do a real thorough assessment, but to see like if we can complete a bout of treatment in 10 sessions… So that could’ve fit in. So, according to my malpractice, if it’s the regulations of that state that allow it, then they would cover me for it.

CC: Oh, that’s great.

JF: So that’s kind of my bottom line, is what my malpractice is saying about it.

CC: Of course. And can you share your… What is your malpractice insurance company?

JF: Oh, the company? It’s American Professional Agency, and they do a lot of healthcare people, and pretty inexpensive. I’ve been with them since I started.

CC: Okay. We were hoping to have a few insurance companies on the podcast…

JF: Oh, sure.

CC: To talk about their different policies, so, good. Okay. So any little tips in marketing… You’ve been pretty successful in creating a private practice. Anything that comes to mind that might be helpful to therapists as they market their practices?

JF: Yeah, I guess… What does marketing mean? Yeah, marketing, to me, is like the obvious stuff, like the website and… All that kinda route. But I think, in here and Florida too, that I think it’s really critical to make relationships with people, with psychiatrists, other therapists, physicians, ’cause… Also, just I can add on, that I’m contracting now with a medical practice. I’m doing two half-days in a medical practice. They do mostly pain and injury work. And I was recruited because the physician there… First of all, there’s a big movement now to get people off of opioids, right?

JF: And so there’s a physician… This physician was definitely trying to clean all of that up in her practice, and she also realized that she had some stumbling blocks that she was really not getting any progress or any results from a lot of these patients, and she pretty much saw that it was more of an emotional problem these people were having that was either causing the pain or exacerbating the pain, they’re just not letting them get better. And so she saw the need to have a therapist that she could just say, “You’ll make it.” It wasn’t a referral. It was like, “You’ll go down the hall to see this person next week instead of coming to see me.”

JF: And so it feels a little cutting edge, it feels very important, it feels like something that should’ve been done long ago. So I’m really excited about that. And I am seeing people. And also, it’s a new… They talk about marketing, but they’d say, “New product”, let’s say, where someone’s gonna come in, “I’m having all these physical symptoms, and my doctor wants me to come here.” And they might not know why or they might feel like, “Well, it’s all in your head.” So, how do we deliver that message that they can hear it and be open and receptive and motivated in therapy?

JF: So, your question is about marketing, but I think… Like to think much more broader, like where can I put myself where I’m gonna get like… And, to me, they’re just handing me the patients. And the work is going really remarkably well, and it’s interesting, ’cause now people have sought me out specifically, it’s been through this. So it’s a population I might not have come into contact with before, but then I have adapted that into my practice. Now I’m doing pain management or somatic stuff like irritable bowel, even skin conditions too. There’s so many things, like mind-body, we know.

CC: Right. Absolutely.

JF: So it was beautiful. And so… And I was kind of doing that kind of not so deliberately, but in my other practice, where people were coming in with somatic stuff, and that was all kind of hang up once they had their emotional stuff attended.

CC: Yeah, I think that that’s a great answer to the question of, it is about relationships, it’s about putting yourself where there is need, and that is how we market care and service, therefore, we need to be in the place where we can be of service. So absolutely, that’s a great way of looking at it. So I do want to talk just briefly, as we wrap up, that you have a particular… You do training for other online therapists, this is something new, some teaching on your particular approach. So talk about your specific approach, your short-term work, and your training with other therapists for that.

JF: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the model that I work from, that I’ve been trained in is called intensive short-term dynamic psychotherapy. I stumbled on it myself.

CC: It’s a long one.

JF: It’s not a short term title. ISTDP, for short. But I feel so fortunate to have been exposed to this right out of the gate. And it’s really powerful. It goes into the heading of emotion-focused, where we’re really concentrating in helping patients understand, recognize, experience their emotions, as opposed to avoiding and ignoring them, and how much information that gives and how people feel much more clear and more comfortable in their own skin once that connection is made more deeply. So I could go on and on about it, but the great thing about it is that when I took my… That post-graduate program at the Washington School, I had… I was filled with wonderful theoretical information, ego psychology, object relations, all these wonderful things for my head to be thinking about and understanding, and this is how it works, and this is all the connections, and unconscious stuff. It was wonderful. And then sit down with someone who’s depressed, and I’m like, “Woah, your object relations are… Need to be kind of fiddled with.”

[laughter]

JF: It was like… But this, ISTDP, I actually had a specific technique, it had a blueprint. It’s like it was specific interventions that got people online, and ways to track their anxiety, their responses to your intervention, like everything is kind of all spelled out. It’s not like a formula or a workbook or a kind of a cookie-cutter kind of thing. It’s very adapted and flexible to the people that you’re working with, but really powerful. And nine times out of 10, I just love when people come in and they’ve been in therapy for all these years or have been to a 1000 therapists. And they come in, they experience this, and they’re pretty much like, “Wow, I’ve never understood this about myself. I’ve never experienced therapy in this way. I’ve never had it been so effective so quickly.”

JF: And that’s the other part of it, which is it’s not this long kind of laborious trip through ancient history. We’re actually here now, what are you feeling right now, what are you aware of feeling right now, what are you aware of feeling in response to my question about your feelings? So really very minor, close process monitoring, which is really amazing. So, anyway, you can tell probably by the way I’m presenting this, very passionate about it. And so, I’ve had people come in who are interested in learning… Not patients… Wanting to learn about this. And so I, like my predecessors, would like to offer it, and offering this to people who are interested in learning how to really be a robust therapist. And one of the great gifts to this model is that it’s all… We’re doing video. And my teachers showed me, they didn’t tell me, they showed me what they were doing. And that’s my kind of learning, is don’t tell me, show me. And so, yeah, I’m excited to offer this to people who are curious and interested in it. And again, there’s lots of theory and technique attached to it, but let me show you exactly what happened in my online therapy session, and exactly the way the patient responded to my intervention. And so, yeah, I’m excited to be able to bring that. And I’m here, new in Sarasota. Nobody’s heard of it here. I’m kind of the go-to person, as far as that goes, so I’m looking forward to kind of spreading the good word about it.

CC: It sounds fascinating, fascinating. Well, you’re the first of this new project that I’ve launched, of interviewing some of the members on the directory, and just shining a light on there. And I don’t think I could have picked a better person, because you encapsulate so much of what I think people are drawn to. First, it’s the convenience, and working with people online. It’s the business end of it. So many people dream of traveling, or they have retirement coming up, or moving. You’ve experienced that. How do I set up a new online therapy practice, and take my practice with me? It’s possible.

JF: Yeah.

CC: I thank you so much. This is… Just… I’m so glad that I picked you for my first one.

JF: Yeah. Okay, I’m glad you picked me.

CC: So thank you for doing this. I really hope that… Continued success… For people that want to find out more about Jeffrey Frank, he can be reached at sarasotapsychotherapy.com, which… Great domain name. I’m kind of surprised that was available to you.

JF: Me too.

CC: Good job with getting that.

JF: Thank you.

CC: People need to know that domain names are important, not as important as they used to be, but they’re really, really important in naming your practice for Google and SEO. So if you want to get in touch with Jeffrey Frank, he’s at sarasotapsychotherapy.com. Look him up. Look into the short-term dynamic psychotherapy. It sounds fascinating. So, Jeffrey, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

JF: You’re very, very welcome. Thanks, Clay.